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Jesus: Separating the Truth from the Myth.

Started by Pazuzu, August 25, 2009, 06:54:26 PM

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Pazuzu

Salams to all.

I have been on a very long vacation from this site, doing some extensive research about the origins of the three so-called "Heavenly Religions". I would like to share with you an excellent article about the birth of Christianity and how it became the religion it is today, and to compare the Quranic text with that of the current Christian scripture (the New Testament's recognized 4 so-called "gospels"). It will show just how confused both the Christians and the Muslims are  on the matter of Jesus, while attempting to answer one critical question:

Are the Jesus of the New TEstament and the Eesa of the QUran the same person?

The article is not exclusively my own work (at least not entirely). I am simply going through the arduous process of translating , summarising it, and adding a few bits to it here and there, with hopes of making it more presentable. (The original study was done in Arabic).

I will post it in parts, and I hope we can all learn from it. Please bear with me, and I hope you will have a fruitful and enlightening reading.

I welcome the feedback of EVERYONE here, especially those of you who are into history and archeology (especially borthers Layth, Ayman, Arnold, Samia, and well known others) and those who have knowledge in the Christian and Jewish scriptures and can share their precious bits with me.

__________________________________________________________

                                                                                   INTRODUCTION TO CHRISTIANITY

                                                                                          (Presenting the Theory)

The kingdom that was established by David was the first truly independent state for the Israelites, and was later inherited by his son Solomon. The post-Solomon era was marked by strife, internal divisions and civil wars. Eventually, in the year -586, the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II  annexed the Kingdom of Judah and took thousands of Israelites as captives to Babylon.

From then on, and until the year 1948, the Israelites and other Jews lived under the rule of non-Jews (?gentiles?), and were scattered throughout the earth. They constantly dreamed of a savior from among themselves, who would deliver them from foreign rule and who would build for them a kingdom wherein all their tribes would be united, and they would be the rulers of their own destiny. They called this long-awaited figure, who would come from the Davidic line, ?Messiah?.   More so, ever since the fall of Judah, any man who would present himself before the Jews and claim the heirloom of David became, at least in the eyes of his followers, an awaited Messiah, and many hopes were built around him to revive the lost glory of the Kingdom of Israel.

Between the years +28 and +30, a Jewish man, descendent of David, who went by the name of Jesus (يسوع), entered Palestine accompanied by his mother, his aunt, four brothers and a small contingent of followers, and sought to present himself as Messiah, whose goal was to return the ancient heirloom of David to its former glory and to establish a kingdom that was exclusively for Israelite Jews. Jesus chose Palestine in particular because it happened to harbor the largest community of Israeli Jews anywhere in the world at that time.

From the time of his arrival, he began to travel from town to town and invite the people to join him, promising them freedom and independence from the oppressive Roman rule. His call was heeded by many a poor and simple Israelite, who wanted to hope for a better future. But the Pharisees, (Jewish priests of non-Israeli lineage), had a different opinion: First, because they could not suffer to be ruled by an Israeli, and second, because it was in their interest that the Roman rule remain in Palestine - for they benefited from many privileges under it - they stood to oppose Jesus, and eventually managed to arrest him on the very night he planned to assassinate the Roman viceroy of Palestine. Jesus was tried for treason on the count of him having declared himself as the long-awaited Davidic Messiah, was handed over to the authorities, and sentenced to death by crucifixion.

The record of this man, Jesus, may well have been lost to history or doomed to become a minor and insignificant account of a stranger who came to Palestine looking to rekindle the lost glory of the Israelites but who failed in his mission, was tried and executed by the powers that were.   But this was not to be so; for Jesus? brothers and faithful followers continued in his footsteps, preaching his ideas in secret, and hoping that someday, when the tides turned in Palestine, they would have the chance to establish the kingdom of their dreams.

The authorities of the viceroy relentlessly persecuted the followers of Jesus? movement, arresting them in vast numbers. Then, many years after Jesus? death, there appeared on the scene a man by the name of Saul, who was the most enthusiastic defender of the creed of the Pharisee Priests, and an avid supporter of the Roman rule in Palestine. He declared open war on the followers of Jesus, killed and imprisoned them by the hundreds; yet despite all his efforts, their movement continued to grow.

After a trip to Damascus where he consulted with a Jewish priest by the name of Ananias, Saul?s enthusiastic strategy took a drastic turn. Instead of relying on brute force and violence to silence Jesus? movement, he turned to more subtle, sinister and twisted means to put an end to the threat it posed to the viceroy.

This new strategy consisted of spreading the fallacious belief that Jesus had never meant to establish an earthly kingdom for the Israelite Jews; rather, he had come to the world for a completely different reason and in a completely different image ? for he was not human. He had come carrying the special and divine message of dying on the cross to absolve all of humanity of its sins. Jesus had never meant to liberate the Israelite from the oppressive Roman rule, but to sacrifice himself on the cross for all mankind, thereby ensuring for them their Kingdom in the Next Life.

For years the followers of Jesus resisted the spread of Saul?s preachings with all the strength they could muster. But try as they might, they could not halt the tide of his ideas. For Saul, who by that time had changed his name to Paul, was serving the Romans, and had under his disposal all the means that the state could afford him in sowing the seeds of his new dogma. Whereas the brothers of Jesus and their supporters were actually a political opposition who were working in secret, and constituted an outlawed liberation movement.

And thus Christianity was originally created for the single purpose of ending the threat of the Israelis? demand of rulership over the Jews.  But the fate of this new dogma was to spread and evolve beyond even the design of its preachers, Paul and his teacher, Ananias.
The momentum of Christianity may well have faded gradually over the years, had not the Roman Emperor Constantine officially declare it as the religion of the State in the beginning of the 4th Century, and striven to spread its creed and dogma throughout Europe with all the power that Rome had at its disposal at that time, all the while enriching it with beliefs and ceremonies of pagan origins (Sunday Mass, Christmas, Santa Claus, Easter, etc...). It was during the reign of Constantine that the Articles of Faith were established, which firmly upheld the belief that Jesus was Lord and Son of God. Christianity continued to grow from then on and, as with any other creed, developed various branches and sects, and people no longer remembered - or cared to remember - how it actually began.

And so it was, centuries after Jesus, Christianity as we know it today was born, and was based upon the following beliefs:

1)  Belief in a Trinity of Gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. [Mathew - 28:19].
2)  Belief that Jesus, God?s only begotten son, died on the cross to absolve humanity of all its sins. [John - 3:16,17].  

It follows that it?s enough for one to have faith in these first two creeds in order to become a Christian, even if one commits countless sins. [John - 3:18].

3)  Belief that Jesus was risen after his crucifixion, and was physically taken up to Heaven, where he is alive and well, to this day, and currently sits at the right hand of God - the Father?s Throne.

On the other hand, the vast majority of those who call themselves ?Muslims? believe the following:

? That Christianity, in its original form, was actually a ?Heavenly Religion? (دين سماوي), as they call it, but was later corrupted and perverted. As such, they hold on to the fallacious belief that the ?original Christianity? was actually the religion of the Nabi Eesa (عيسى) and his followers, who are mentioned in the Quran.

? That the original scripture of the Christians is the ?Injeel? (إنجيل) mentioned in the Quran, but it was later corrupted by their clergy, until it became what it is today (The New Testament).

?That Jesus (يسوع) is Eesa (عيسى), and that the difference in pronunciation is simply because (يسوع) is Hebrew for (عيسى).

While they are in agreement with Christians on the following points:

? That he was born of a virgin mother.

? That he was raised physically up to Heaven, where he is still alive today, and that he will return to earth someday, despite the fact that the Quran, which they hypocritically claim to follow, makes it very clear that he died here on earth, like all the anbiya who came before him and he is not coming back. I will prove this later on in the article.

These beliefs are shared by the vast majority of Muslims worldwide. In fact, every time a typical Muslim debates with a Christian, the former will attempt to convince the latter that he (the Muslim) does in fact believe in Jesus the Messiah, but that his real name was Eesa, not Jesus, and that he was indeed born of a virgin mother, but he was just an ordinary man sent as a messenger to the Israelites, and was not a part of a Trinity of Gods. Also, the Muslim will vehemently argue that Eesa did not die on the cross, but the one who was crucified was an entirely different person, because the Quran says so! (As the Muslim claims).

{And their saying: ?We have killed the Messiah, Eesa the son of Maryam, the messenger of God!? And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge but are following mere conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty}?[4:157]

So, is the Christianity that is rampant today truly derived from the creed of Eesa, the son of Maryam and his followers, who are mentioned in the Quran?

More importantly, are Jesus and Eesa the same person?

                                                                                                 *****

This long article will attempt to reveal, with the help of God, and with the support of textual proof and historical evidence, many truths that contradict all that the Muslims believe about Jesus, and all that the Christians think they know about him. It will lay to rest, once and for all, the idea of the divinity of Jesus, and prove, beyond the shadow of doubt, that the Jesus mentioned in the New Testament could not have been the Eesa of the Quran, neither in time nor in place, but that the two were completely different persons from different eras.

                                                                                                  *****

Rev.John

Quote from: Pazuzu on August 25, 2009, 06:54:26 PM
Salams to all.

I have been on a very long vacation from this site, doing some extensive research about the origins of the three so-called "Heavenly Religions". I would like to share with you an excellent article about the birth of Christianity and how it became the religion it is today, and to compare the Quranic text with that of the current Christian scripture (the New Testament's recognized 4 so-called "gospels"). It will show just how confused both the Christians and the Muslims are  on the matter of Jesus, while attempting to answer one critical question:

Are the Jesus of the New TEstament and the Eesa of the QUran the same person?

The article is not exclusively my own work (at least not entirely). I am simply going through the arduous process of translating , summarising it, and adding a few bits to it here and there, with hopes of making it more presentable. (The original study was done in Arabic).

I will post it in parts, and I hope we can all learn from it. Please bear with me, and I hope you will have a fruitful and enlightening reading.

I welcome the feedback of EVERYONE here, especially those of you who are into history and archeology (especially borthers Layth, Ayman, Arnold, Samia, and well known others) and those who have knowledge in the Christian and Jewish scriptures and can share their precious bits with me.

__________________________________________________________

                                                                                   INTRODUCTION TO CHRISTIANITY

                                                                                          (Presenting the Theory)

The kingdom that was established by David was the first truly independent state for the Israelites, and was later inherited by his son Solomon. The post-Solomon era was marked by strife, internal divisions and civil wars. Eventually, in the year -586, the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II  annexed the Kingdom of Judah and took thousands of Israelites as captives to Babylon.

From then on, and until the year 1948, the Israelites and other Jews lived under the rule of non-Jews (?gentiles?), and were scattered throughout the earth. They constantly dreamed of a savior from among themselves, who would deliver them from foreign rule and who would build for them a kingdom wherein all their tribes would be united, and they would be the rulers of their own destiny. They called this long-awaited figure, who would come from the Davidic line, ?Messiah?.   More so, ever since the fall of Judah, any man who would present himself before the Jews and claim the heirloom of David became, at least in the eyes of his followers, an awaited Messiah, and many hopes were built around him to revive the lost glory of the Kingdom of Israel.

Between the years +28 and +30, a Jewish man, descendent of David, who went by the name of Jesus (يسوع), entered Palestine accompanied by his mother, his aunt, four brothers and a small contingent of followers, and sought to present himself as Messiah, whose goal was to return the ancient heirloom of David to its former glory and to establish a kingdom that was exclusively for Israelite Jews. Jesus chose Palestine in particular because it happened to harbor the largest community of Israeli Jews anywhere in the world at that time.

From the time of his arrival, he began to travel from town to town and invite the people to join him, promising them freedom and independence from the oppressive Roman rule. His call was heeded by many a poor and simple Israelite, who wanted to hope for a better future. But the Pharisees, (Jewish priests of non-Israeli lineage), had a different opinion: First, because they could not suffer to be ruled by an Israeli, and second, because it was in their interest that the Roman rule remain in Palestine - for they benefited from many privileges under it - they stood to oppose Jesus, and eventually managed to arrest him on the very night he planned to assassinate the Roman viceroy of Palestine. Jesus was tried for treason on the count of him having declared himself as the long-awaited Davidic Messiah, was handed over to the authorities, and sentenced to death by crucifixion.

The record of this man, Jesus, may well have been lost to history or doomed to become a minor and insignificant account of a stranger who came to Palestine looking to rekindle the lost glory of the Israelites but who failed in his mission, was tried and executed by the powers that were.   But this was not to be so; for Jesus? brothers and faithful followers continued in his footsteps, preaching his ideas in secret, and hoping that someday, when the tides turned in Palestine, they would have the chance to establish the kingdom of their dreams.

The authorities of the viceroy relentlessly persecuted the followers of Jesus? movement, arresting them in vast numbers. Then, many years after Jesus? death, there appeared on the scene a man by the name of Saul, who was the most enthusiastic defender of the creed of the Pharisee Priests, and an avid supporter of the Roman rule in Palestine. He declared open war on the followers of Jesus, killed and imprisoned them by the hundreds; yet despite all his efforts, their movement continued to grow.

After a trip to Damascus where he consulted with a Jewish priest by the name of Ananias, Saul?s enthusiastic strategy took a drastic turn. Instead of relying on brute force and violence to silence Jesus? movement, he turned to more subtle, sinister and twisted means to put an end to the threat it posed to the viceroy.

This new strategy consisted of spreading the fallacious belief that Jesus had never meant to establish an earthly kingdom for the Israelite Jews; rather, he had come to the world for a completely different reason and in a completely different image ? for he was not human. He had come carrying the special and divine message of dying on the cross to absolve all of humanity of its sins. Jesus had never meant to liberate the Israelite from the oppressive Roman rule, but to sacrifice himself on the cross for all mankind, thereby ensuring for them their Kingdom in the Next Life.

For years the followers of Jesus resisted the spread of Saul?s preachings with all the strength they could muster. But try as they might, they could not halt the tide of his ideas. For Saul, who by that time had changed his name to Paul, was serving the Romans, and had under his disposal all the means that the state could afford him in sowing the seeds of his new dogma. Whereas the brothers of Jesus and their supporters were actually a political opposition who were working in secret, and constituted an outlawed liberation movement.

And thus Christianity was originally created for the single purpose of ending the threat of the Israelis? demand of rulership over the Jews.  But the fate of this new dogma was to spread and evolve beyond even the design of its preachers, Paul and his teacher, Ananias.
The momentum of Christianity may well have faded gradually over the years, had not the Roman Emperor Constantine officially declare it as the religion of the State in the beginning of the 4th Century, and striven to spread its creed and dogma throughout Europe with all the power that Rome had at its disposal at that time, all the while enriching it with beliefs and ceremonies of pagan origins (Sunday Mass, Christmas, Santa Claus, Easter, etc...). It was during the reign of Constantine that the Articles of Faith were established, which firmly upheld the belief that Jesus was Lord and Son of God. Christianity continued to grow from then on and, as with any other creed, developed various branches and sects, and people no longer remembered - or cared to remember - how it actually began.

And so it was, centuries after Jesus, Christianity as we know it today was born, and was based upon the following beliefs:

1)  Belief in a Trinity of Gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. [Mathew - 28:19].
2)  Belief that Jesus, God?s only begotten son, died on the cross to absolve humanity of all its sins. [John - 3:16,17].  

It follows that it?s enough for one to have faith in these first two creeds in order to become a Christian, even if one commits countless sins. [John - 3:18].

3)  Belief that Jesus was risen after his crucifixion, and was physically taken up to Heaven, where he is alive and well, to this day, and currently sits at the right hand of God - the Father?s Throne.

On the other hand, the vast majority of those who call themselves ?Muslims? believe the following:

? That Christianity, in its original form, was actually a ?Heavenly Religion? (دين سماوي), as they call it, but was later corrupted and perverted. As such, they hold on to the fallacious belief that the ?original Christianity? was actually the religion of the Nabi Eesa (عيسى) and his followers, who are mentioned in the Quran.

? That the original scripture of the Christians is the ?Injeel? (إنجيل) mentioned in the Quran, but it was later corrupted by their clergy, until it became what it is today (The New Testament).

?That Jesus (يسوع) is Eesa (عيسى), and that the difference in pronunciation is simply because (يسوع) is Hebrew for (عيسى).

While they are in agreement with Christians on the following points:

? That he was born of a virgin mother.

? That he was raised physically up to Heaven, where he is still alive today, and that he will return to earth someday, despite the fact that the Quran, which they hypocritically claim to follow, makes it very clear that he died here on earth, like all the anbiya who came before him and he is not coming back. I will prove this later on in the article.

These beliefs are shared by the vast majority of Muslims worldwide. In fact, every time a typical Muslim debates with a Christian, the former will attempt to convince the latter that he (the Muslim) does in fact believe in Jesus the Messiah, but that his real name was Eesa, not Jesus, and that he was indeed born of a virgin mother, but he was just an ordinary man sent as a messenger to the Israelites, and was not a part of a Trinity of Gods. Also, the Muslim will vehemently argue that Eesa did not die on the cross, but the one who was crucified was an entirely different person, because the Quran says so! (As the Muslim claims).

{And their saying: ?We have killed the Messiah, Eesa the son of Maryam, the messenger of God!? And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge but are following mere conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty}?[4:157]

So, is the Christianity that is rampant today truly derived from the creed of Eesa, the son of Maryam and his followers, who are mentioned in the Quran?

More importantly, are Jesus and Eesa the same person?

                                                                                                 *****

This long article will attempt to reveal, with the help of God, and with the support of textual proof and historical evidence, many truths that contradict all that the Muslims believe about Jesus, and all that the Christians think they know about him. It will lay to rest, once and for all, the idea of the divinity of Jesus, and prove, beyond the shadow of doubt, that the Jesus mentioned in the New Testament could not have been the Eesa of the Quran, neither in time nor in place, but that the two were completely different persons from different eras.

                                                                                                  *****


Interesting post. I would like to know your sources as some seem to be possible but others a little sparse.
[url="http://www.christianchurchofreality.com"]http://www.christianchurchofreality.com[/url]
Only God has the answer and only God knows the truth
www.islandminister.com

Just so you know, I am a God-alone Christian and a Church Minister

afridi220

Quote from: Rev.John on August 25, 2009, 07:19:06 PM
Interesting post. I would like to know your sources as some seem to be possible but others a little sparse.

Yeah i will to now about the source too :police:
Peace


People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered; forgive them anyway

Ahmad Bilal

I was about to make a comment a while back, but I didn't think he was done. He said it was an "introduction", and I thought he was going to elaborate a little more on other details... Oh well...  :-\

Not defending the Jewish Pharisees in this issue or anything, but they're often portrayed as the "bad guys", and this is not really the case. They didn't kill (or attempt to kill) Jesus because he claimed to be the messiah, it was because they viewed him as a rejector and a false prophet. According to the laws of the Torah, they were required to kill him! Here's a review of "Jesus the Jew" from a Rabbinical Jewish perspective:

The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.

To be accepted by the people, the false prophet would sometimes pretend to be a righteous Jew who fulfills the Law, but at key moments he would turn against certain details of the Law in order to make the breach (v. 6, 7). This is the reason that verse 1 commands us not to add or subtract any details from the Law, and verse 5 warns us to remain steadfast with all the traditions of the Law.

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). Who are the judges? The highest court in Israel was the Sanhedrin, which was established by Moses (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-29), and which lasted more than 15 centuries. The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man.

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39).

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies. He became a "king" (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos the Festival of Tabernacles, Passover, etc.). He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new "trinity" that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin.

Naturally, Jesus did sometimes pretend to respect the Law, but whenever he thought he could get away with it, he turned right around and broke that same Law. In Matthew 5:17-19, he declared that he came to fulfill the Law, and in Matthew 23:1-3 he defended the authority of the rabbis. But the rest of the time, he rebelled against the Law?thus showing that his occasional words of piety were meant only to hide his evil agenda. The following sins of Jesus are recorded in the "New Testament":

1. Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19). [Compare this to the prophet Daniel's strict adherence to kashrus, in Daniel chapter 1.]
2. He repudiated the laws of honoring one's parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
3. He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).
4. He again violated the Sabbath by healing a man's arm, which was not a matter of saving a life, and he openly defied the rabbis in his total repudiation of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). [Compare this to G-d's view of violating the Sabbath, in Numbers 15:32-36, Nehemiah 10:30-32, and dozens of other places throughout the Bible.]
5. Jesus brazenly defied and disobeyed the rabbis of the Sanhedrin, repudiating their authority (This is recorded in many places throughout the New Testament, but look especially at Matthew 23:13-39 and John 8:44-45).


He goes on to say this:

The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d:

1. "G-d is not a man, who can lie, nor the son of man, who relents... He has not beheld iniquity in Jacob, nor has He seen perverseness in Israel" (Numbers 23:19).
2. Speaking prophetically of the Christian church, Moses declared, "For their 'rock' is not like our Rock... Where is their god, in whom they trusted?" (Deut. 32:31, 37).
3. "'See now that I, only I, am He, and there is no god with Me. I kill, and I bring to life; I wound, and I heal, and there is none who can rescue from My Hand...' Sing songs of joy, gentiles, with His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will take vengeance on His enemies, and will forgive His land and His people" (Deut. 32:39, 43).
4. "I, only I am Hashem (the L-rd), and besides Me there is no savior" (Isaiah 43:11).
5. "I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god... Is there a god besides Me? There is no rock; I do not know any" (Isaiah 44:6).
6. "Israel is saved in Hashem with an eternal salvation... Assemble yourselves and come, come near together, you gentiles who have escaped [the judgment]. (They have no knowledge, those who carry wooden sculptures and who pray to a god that does not save.) Announce and bring near, even take counsel together: Who declared this from ancient times, and announced it from then? Is it not I, Hashem? And there are no other gods beside Me, nor any righteous and saving god other than Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all ends of the earth, for I am G-d and there is none else. By Myself I swore, a righteous word went out of my mouth and it will not be withdrawn, that to Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear" (Isaiah 45:17, 20-23).


They viewed Jesus as a fierce objector to the Torah, a rebel against the Sanhedrin, and a false prophet would tried to sway the people against God. So, according to their scriptures, they were justified, and even righteous, for slaying (or attempting to slay) Jesus. If they hadn't have done so, they would've been the transgressors and violators of the scripture...

Many people look at the story from a one-sided perspective, pinning Jesus and his followers as the good guys and the Pharisees and Jews as the bad guys. But this is not a good way of looking at the overall situation. Of course the Jews are going to say they're right, and of course Christians are going to say they were wrong. The important thing for us to do, as descendants and students of this circumstance, is to look at the whole picture and form a conclusion from there...
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Pazuzu

QuoteInteresting post. I would like to know your sources as some seem to be possible but others a little sparse.

I will reveal my sources at the begining of each part. Don't worry. I will do my absolute best to maintain the highest level of objectivity throughout this study.

In the meantime, please tell me what it is that you found to be "sparse" in the introduction, so I can make a note of it for later reference and reminder.

QuoteNot defending the Jewish Pharisees in this issue or anything, but they're often portrayed as the "bad guys", and this is not really the case. They didn't kill (or attempt to kill) Jesus because he claimed to be the messiah, it was because they viewed him as a rejector and a false prophet. According to the laws of the Torah, they were required to kill him! Here's a review of "Jesus the Jew" from a Rabbinical Jewish perspective:

Dear Ahmad, please note that I am not demonizing the Pharisees, nor am I making an angel of Jesus. You must remember that the Pharisees were non-Israeli Jews. Furthermore, they enjoyed certain priviledges under the Roman rule, and occupied high stations in the government.  (Some sources claim that they were given stewardship over the Temple , but I decided not to mention that because I have yet to find any proof of the existence of this temple in Jerusalem). 

Furthermore, as I will soon prove, Jesus' mission was purely a political one. He came to Palestine seeking to rule and nothing else. Being that he was descendant of David, surely you can see that he constituted a danger to the Pharisees and threatened their interests. If the Pharisees were so keen on implementing the law of the Torat, they would not have accepted to live under Roman mandate to begin with. I see the struggle as 100% political.
Very often religion is used as an excuse for political movements, or to mask political motives.

QuoteMany people look at the story from a one-sided perspective, pinning Jesus and his followers as the good guys and the Pharisees and Jews as the bad guys

I have done no such thing. I will soon show you that Jesus wasn't exactly a saint for his part, for he too fell into the trap of using religion as an excuse for his political motives.

Be patient. I will get to that part soon.

Rev.John

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on August 25, 2009, 08:46:47 PM
I was about to make a comment a while back, but I didn't think he was done. He said it was an "introduction", and I thought he was going to elaborate a little more on other details... Oh well...  :-\

Not defending the Jewish Pharisees in this issue or anything, but they're often portrayed as the "bad guys", and this is not really the case. They didn't kill (or attempt to kill) Jesus because he claimed to be the messiah, it was because they viewed him as a rejector and a false prophet. According to the laws of the Torah, they were required to kill him! Here's a review of "Jesus the Jew" from a Rabbinical Jewish perspective:

The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.

To be accepted by the people, the false prophet would sometimes pretend to be a righteous Jew who fulfills the Law, but at key moments he would turn against certain details of the Law in order to make the breach (v. 6, 7). This is the reason that verse 1 commands us not to add or subtract any details from the Law, and verse 5 warns us to remain steadfast with all the traditions of the Law.

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). Who are the judges? The highest court in Israel was the Sanhedrin, which was established by Moses (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-29), and which lasted more than 15 centuries. The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man.

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39).

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies. He became a "king" (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos the Festival of Tabernacles, Passover, etc.). He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new "trinity" that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin.

Naturally, Jesus did sometimes pretend to respect the Law, but whenever he thought he could get away with it, he turned right around and broke that same Law. In Matthew 5:17-19, he declared that he came to fulfill the Law, and in Matthew 23:1-3 he defended the authority of the rabbis. But the rest of the time, he rebelled against the Law?thus showing that his occasional words of piety were meant only to hide his evil agenda. The following sins of Jesus are recorded in the "New Testament":

1. Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19). [Compare this to the prophet Daniel's strict adherence to kashrus, in Daniel chapter 1.]
2. He repudiated the laws of honoring one's parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
3. He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).
4. He again violated the Sabbath by healing a man's arm, which was not a matter of saving a life, and he openly defied the rabbis in his total repudiation of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). [Compare this to G-d's view of violating the Sabbath, in Numbers 15:32-36, Nehemiah 10:30-32, and dozens of other places throughout the Bible.]
5. Jesus brazenly defied and disobeyed the rabbis of the Sanhedrin, repudiating their authority (This is recorded in many places throughout the New Testament, but look especially at Matthew 23:13-39 and John 8:44-45).


He goes on to say this:

The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d:

1. "G-d is not a man, who can lie, nor the son of man, who relents... He has not beheld iniquity in Jacob, nor has He seen perverseness in Israel" (Numbers 23:19).
2. Speaking prophetically of the Christian church, Moses declared, "For their 'rock' is not like our Rock... Where is their god, in whom they trusted?" (Deut. 32:31, 37).
3. "'See now that I, only I, am He, and there is no god with Me. I kill, and I bring to life; I wound, and I heal, and there is none who can rescue from My Hand...' Sing songs of joy, gentiles, with His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will take vengeance on His enemies, and will forgive His land and His people" (Deut. 32:39, 43).
4. "I, only I am Hashem (the L-rd), and besides Me there is no savior" (Isaiah 43:11).
5. "I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god... Is there a god besides Me? There is no rock; I do not know any" (Isaiah 44:6).
6. "Israel is saved in Hashem with an eternal salvation... Assemble yourselves and come, come near together, you gentiles who have escaped [the judgment]. (They have no knowledge, those who carry wooden sculptures and who pray to a god that does not save.) Announce and bring near, even take counsel together: Who declared this from ancient times, and announced it from then? Is it not I, Hashem? And there are no other gods beside Me, nor any righteous and saving god other than Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all ends of the earth, for I am G-d and there is none else. By Myself I swore, a righteous word went out of my mouth and it will not be withdrawn, that to Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear" (Isaiah 45:17, 20-23).


They viewed Jesus as a fierce objector to the Torah, a rebel against the Sanhedrin, and a false prophet would tried to sway the people against God. So, according to their scriptures, they were justified, and even righteous, for slaying (or attempting to slay) Jesus. If they hadn't have done so, they would've been the transgressors and violators of the scripture...

Many people look at the story from a one-sided perspective, pinning Jesus and his followers as the good guys and the Pharisees and Jews as the bad guys. But this is not a good way of looking at the overall situation. Of course the Jews are going to say they're right, and of course Christians are going to say they were wrong. The important thing for us to do, as descendants and students of this circumstance, is to look at the whole picture and form a conclusion from there...


Well, you are totally wrong!


1. Not once did Jesus did claim to be the Messiah. He only ever said he was the son of man

2. Jesus did not fulfill the prophesy of the messiah, ask any Jew.

3. When did Jesus "do away" with the Hebrew calender? He didn't

4. Jesus never mentioned the trinity, this was invented hundreds of years later.

5. Jesus was not "King over the Christian Church". the Christian Church did not exist until sometime after his death.

Most of your information is incorrect.
[url="http://www.christianchurchofreality.com"]http://www.christianchurchofreality.com[/url]
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Just so you know, I am a God-alone Christian and a Church Minister

Ahmad Bilal

Quote from: Rev.John on August 26, 2009, 10:37:49 AM
Well, you are totally wrong!

1. Not once did Jesus did claim to be the Messiah. He only ever said he was the son of man

2. Jesus did not fulfill the prophesy of the messiah, ask any Jew.

3. When did Jesus "do away" with the Hebrew calender? He didn't

4. Jesus never mentioned the trinity, this was invented hundreds of years later.

5. Jesus was not "King over the Christian Church". the Christian Church did not exist until sometime after his death.

Most of your information is incorrect.

I didn't say this was my personal opinion, I said this is the Rabbinical Jewish perspective. Now, regarding the things you mentioned:

(1) Jesus DID claim to be the Jewish moshiach.
The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah comes," (he who is called Christ). "When he has come, he will declare to us all things." Jesus said to her, "I am he, the one who speaks to you." (entire passage of Matt. 4:1-26)

(2) Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the moshiach, and the Jews agree. The author of the article I posted confirms the view that Jesus DID NOT fulfill the prophecies, thereby saying that he couldn't possibly have been the real Jewish moshiach, even though he clearly claimed to be.

(3) The concept in Daniel, where it speaks of the man changing the Hebrew calendar, is not necessarily referring to the man actually doing these things. Rather, it's referring to the man's MESSAGE in doing these things, shown by the works of his disciples. After Jesus' alleged death and resurrection, his followers (the ancient and modern Christian church) turned away from the Torah and rejected the Jewish holidays. They also adapted a new calendar system (the Roman calendar), which is still used today, based on the alleged birth of Jesus, and they rejected the original Shabbath, exchanging the traditional "Saturday" services for Sunday services and worship.

(4) It's the same concept as the above mentioned concept. It's not necessarily speaking about the person living or teaching these things; rather, it's talking about the message that sparks the idea. Based on his alleged teachings, as well as the teachings of his followers (i.e. Paul, John), Jesus is accredited with creating, or reinstituting, a triune god, with himself being a member of this "god-head".

(5) Jesus is STILL considered the "king" of the Christian church, even today. His rulership never existed among the Jewish people during his lifetime, so in order to justify his authority and "messiah-ship", the church unanimously declared that Jesus is their "king" (messiah), "lord", and "savior". That's why the Catholic church today STILL claims to be the spiritual embodiment of Jesus on earth, and other organized sectarian churches throughout the world (esp. Protestantism) makes the same claim.

The things I mentioned are not wrong at all, they're just based on God's law, the Torah. And according to the Torah, Jesus was a wicked blasphemer and a false prophet, and the Jews were commanded by God to kill him in order to keep his message from spreading to the masses. Their later punishment, which included the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, was due to their failing in their mission, by allowing Jesus' message to spread among the people and eventually throughout the world...

Again, this is not my personal view of Jesus, this is the Jewish view of Jesus.
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Rev.John

The fact that most of these things were changed after his death has nothing to do with Jesus at all. The calender, trinity, king etc, etc. where never mentioned by him nor by his immediate followers, most of these things were brought about by the Romans or the council of Nicea. Paul, as you know doubt know, was a Roman. James, the brother of Jesus, didn't once say Jesus was anything other than a prophet. Unfortunately the followers of Paul won hence the "Roman" Catholic Church.
[url="http://www.christianchurchofreality.com"]http://www.christianchurchofreality.com[/url]
Only God has the answer and only God knows the truth
www.islandminister.com

Just so you know, I am a God-alone Christian and a Church Minister

Ahmad Bilal

Quote from: Rev.John on August 26, 2009, 11:19:06 AM
The fact that most of these things were changed after his death has nothing to do with Jesus at all. The calender, trinity, king etc, etc. where never mentioned by him nor by his immediate followers, most of these things were brought about by the Romans or the council of Nicea. Paul, as you know doubt know, was a Roman. James, the brother of Jesus, didn't once say Jesus was anything other than a prophet. Unfortunately the followers of Paul won hence the "Roman" Catholic Church.

Of course I know those things can't really be attributed to Jesus, but the Jews don't see things in this same light. They say that Jesus' message inspired a rejection of God's law, which made him a false prophet. Personally, I think Jesus was most likely a rabbi who taught Rabbinical Judaism, and the new testament gospels are fabrications, at least to a large degree. Also, based on the new testament, I think it was Paul who deified Jesus, and he was the actual 'false prophet' who taught people to reject the Torah.
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Rev.John

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on August 26, 2009, 11:30:33 AM
I think it was Paul who deified Jesus, and he was the actual 'false prophet' who taught people to reject the Torah.
:bravo: :bravo:
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www.islandminister.com

Just so you know, I am a God-alone Christian and a Church Minister