An analogy for "obey God and obey the messenger"

[Zidane]

At a swimming pool or beach, if there is a sign that says "Please obey the lifeguard at all times." then it is directly referring to the person's role as a lifeguard and nothing else. Let's say the lifeguard's name happened to be Fred, imagine the difference in meaning if the sign said "Obey Fred at all times". We can all see that this is a totally different message! It is no coincidence that every swimming pool or beach in the entire world* does not use a sign that refers to the person's name rather than their role, as they know it would be nonsense.

* none that I have seen or heard of at least.

Peace bro Wakas,

Beautiful analogy! Thanks. Matches the situation clearly. Maybe that's why God didn't preserve the hadiths.

Peace,
Zidane

[WayFinder]

Yeah... thats a good one.

What I also like to question them is to what extent does the obedience apply to... Is it like when the prophet moved his right feet, every sahaba moved their right feet behind him... Or when the prophet cuts his hair/nail, everyone would start cutting their hairs and nails behind him  or when he took a new wife everyone will go hunting for a new wife... like automats... this is the type of 'obedience' they advocate... But logically, it could not have been that way.

[Wakas]

Another question that seems to work well is to ask "Do you think God is going to allow someone into heaven who didn't bother to read the book He sent down or study it, and just copied what others did? For example, is a teacher likely to pass someone who didn't even bother to read the course books or study and just copied everyone else's answers? Does this really help distinguish who deserves to pass or not?"


Usually makes them think.

[Ayisha]

Another question that seems to work well is to ask "Do you think God is going to allow someone into heaven who didn't bother to read the book He sent down or study it, and just copied what others did? For example, is a teacher likely to pass someone who didn't even bother to read the course books or study and just copied everyone else's answers? Does this really help distinguish who deserves to pass or not?"


Usually makes them think.

That's cheating!

[Wilson]

Peace.

Also, on the person that didn't bother to read and study, I can add this.

What's the difference between the average jew, christian or sunni?
Each one grew up in a very religious family and followed their parents/people fully.
They copied all the religious practices (beard, prayers, dress code, etc).
But just like their parents, none of them really cared to read the book they blindly believed in.

Every sunni will tell you that the sunni, who prayed 5 times a day, grew a beard, did fast one month every year, went to mecca etc. will go to heaven.
The other two go to hell.
Although they all did the same; they all followed their parents/people. Never questioned their religion. BUT, the sunni is lucky he grew up in a sunni family.
Because if he'd grown up in a jewish family, he would also have done exactly the same (follow his parents and not care to read).

But if the sunni really believes this is true, then he also says that god is unjust.
Because according to him then, almost all the people that were born in the arab world are admitted into heaven solely based on that fact.
That they grew up in a sunni family. And the rest of the world, well too bad for them. They should've bothered to pick up the quran and read it.
Although the sunni himself has never read it.


So to answer my own question; what is the difference between the three?
Nothing! There is no difference. They are all blind followers (2:166-167). A flock of sheep (25:44).
Not one of the three did anything more than the other.

That's why encourage all my friends, every person I have a discussion with... to read.
Forget everything you're taught and start afresh.
This is not a matter you should take lightly and something you should leave up to others.
Start reading for yourself. Study and draw your own conclusions for once.



2:166-167
When those who were followed will disown those who followed them, and they will see the retribution, and all excuses will abandon them.
And those who followed them said: "If we only could have a chance to disown them as they have disowned us." It is such that God will show them their works which will be regretted by them; they will not leave the Fire.


25:44
Or do you think that most of them hear or comprehend? They are just like livestock. No, they are worse off.



Peace

[Ayisha]

I was with an avid hadithist who picks and chooses and follows the majority rulings last night and she was discussing something about follow the majority, so I said

"Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie."

and got a very firm "I do NOT want to have this conversation right now!"

 

[nerspi]

What I also like to question them is to what extent does the obedience apply to... Is it like when the prophet moved his right feet, every sahaba moved their right feet behind him... Or when the prophet cuts his hair/nail, everyone would start cutting their hairs and nails behind him  or when he took a new wife everyone will go hunting for a new wife... like automats... this is the type of 'obedience' they advocate... But logically, it could not have been that way.

yup but they say God told him to do those things, so we must do the same...
i once asked them where does it end really? i met a lot of hadith followers like that in london, i told them, hey the prophet didn't live in uk so move to arabia, he didn't live in such a house, build one from same material as he did, he didn't drive a car, get a horse or camel (and not just any horse, the exact one he did), he didn't wear shirts and jeans, wear clothes like him (or better yet exact clothes he did, as God apparently told him to wear THOSE clothes he did not any other material), he didn't have a phone,... use something else, he wasn't white get a tan, he didn't have blond hair, color them, he didn't have straight hair, start curling, he was in the trade business so quit everything else and do just that, ....
  you see my point...

they say we must follow in his footstep, yet it's impossible (and illogical) to do so

[ramiabaz]

Why write obey the messenger then? Do you really think that the prophet's job was simply to deliver the message like a mute witness? The prophet must have taught the people how to live their lives according to the Quran? Like the surah the name of which is "HE FROWNED" a blind companion came to the prophet for understanding a verse of the quran but he was busy proselytizing to the pagan Quraysh and so the surah was revelaed. This interpretative function of the prophet was there. After the order for salat was proclaimed he must have taught people how to pray. People did use to come to the prophet with their problems and he used to decide them according to the Quran. So here is my question, did he have a interpretative function to explain the Quran to the people or not?

"You have NO duty EXCEPT DELIVERING the message." 42:48

"Your ONLY duty is delivering, we will call them to account." 13:40

"The messenger has NO function EXCEPT delivery of the message."  5:99

"We have sent down to you a scripture containing YOUR MESSAGE. Do you not understand?" 21:10

"And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran ALONE, they run away in aversion." 17:46

"The messenger said (on the Day of Judgment), "My Lord, my people have DESERTED this Quran." [25:30]

"This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.  Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.  Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.  A revelation from the Lord of the universe.  Had he uttered any other teachings.  We would have punished him.  We would have stopped the revelations to him." [69:40-46]

"Do not move your tongue to hasten it.  It is we who will collect it into Quran.  Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.  Then it is WE who will explain it." 75:16-19

"The Most Gracious.  Teacher of the Quran." 55:1-2

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.  The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice.  Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."  6:114-115

"This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe."  10:37

[rahenijaat1]

Salam and Peace on everyone!

Allah sent His Messenger(SAW) with "The Message".

And Allah ordered us to obey the Messenger.
---"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger."   (Al-Nisaa-59)---
---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah."   (Al-Nisa-80)---

What is "Obedience to Allah"?-----What is "Obedience to the Messenger"?
Are these two different things?---Or---Are they one thing?


The Question is:
Can anyone obey the Messenger without following "The Message"?


Today, the Ummah answers:
Yes, it is possible to obey the Messenger without following "The Message".---How???

They say: "Obedience to the Messenger" is the ahadith (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Al-Muslim, etc.).
So, if you follow the ahadith, you obey the Messenger.
And if you have obeyed the Messenger by following the ahadith, you have obeyed Allah.

---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah."   (Al-Nisa-80)---

So, today the Ummah is obeying the Messenger by following the ahadith, which is equal to obeying Allah.

The Ummah have finally got rid of "The Message" that the Messenger brought.---So sad!

[mmkhan]

Salaam all,

This thread remind me of an incident.

In one of my friends, his father was a very much follower of Prophet's sunna. He use to call me and his son [my friend] a kafir cause we don't follow what he follows.

Surprisingly, he got ill and admitted to the hospital and said that his heart valves is blocked so it has to be operated, and it was done, after a month or so he came back home.

After that I was sitting with them in their house and he again started the same story of following the Prophet, and the conversation between them as follows:

My friend [to his dad]: "Pappa! Please stop this, I am sure that don't follow the Prophet's sunna"

His father: "What? I don't follow Prophet's sunna? Look I have a beard like him, I wear clothes like him and I am not like you, a non-believer"

My friend: "Sorry Pappa, but still I say you don't follow sunna"

His father: "How? Tell me how? [he shouted]"

My friend: "Recently you were admitted to the hospital at the age of 63 years, and you came back home, enjoying your life, and Prophet died at the age of 63 years, how are you following him?"

And you should see his father's face, he was red and could not say a word and looking at my friend and me angrily. I said, ok then I will make a move and I came home.

Whenever I think of this incident, I am like 


May Allah guide us all towards the Truth. 
Mohammed M. Khan