hajj / feast / debate

[raginggaijin]

This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia under 'Festivals'.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp

The Hebrews designated a festival by the word "ḥag" (the Arabic "ḥajj"), originally implying a choragic rhythmic procession around the shrine of an idol or an altar (see Wellhausen, "Skizzen und Vorarbeiten," 3:106); but later, without specific reference to this usage, connoting a day or season of joy ("ḥag" and "simḥah" are correlatives; comp. Amos 7:10; Deut.16:14). As fixed festivals occurred at appointed times, they came to be known as "mo'adim" or "mo'ade Yhwh"; and these became the technical terms for the prescribed holidays, with one exception (Lev. 23:2) always connoting festivals to the exclusion of the Sabbath and New Moon (Ex. 13:10, 23:15, 34:18; Num. 9:2- 7; Num. 28:2; Deut. 16:6; Isa. 1:14, Isa. 33:20), while "ḥag" denotes more specifically the three agricultural festivals (Ex. 23:14), or the Festival of Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles (Lev. 23:6, Lev. 23:34), or the latter only (Judges 21:19; Ezek. Xlv:25; II Chron. 5:3; see Bertheau on II Chron. 7:8-9).
?You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed.? Exo. 23:15
??eṯ-ḥaḡ hammaṣṣwōṯ ti?əmōr ?iḇə?aṯ yām?m tō?ḵal maṣṣwōṯ ka?ă?er ṣi??ṯiḵā ləmwō?ēḏ ḥōḏe? hā?āḇ?ḇ k?-ḇwō yāṣā?ṯā mimmiṣərāyim wəlō?-yērā?? fānay r?qām:? Exo 23:15
?You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.? Exo. 23:16
?wəḥaḡ haqqāṣ?r bik?r? ma?ăśeyḵā ?ă?er tizəra? baśśāḏeh wəḥaḡ hā?āsif bəṣē?ṯ ha??ān? bə?āsəpəḵā ?eṯ-ma?ăśeyḵā min-haśśāḏeh:? Exo. 23:16
?You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year?s end.? Exo. 34:22
?wəḥaḡ ?āḇu?ōṯ ta?ăśeh ləḵā bik?r? qəṣ?r ḥiṭṭ?m wəḥaḡ hā?ās?f təq?faṯ ha??ān?:? Exo. 34:22
Agricultural Festivals.
The harvest is the natural provocation for the farmer to rejoice and to manifest his gratitude to the Godhead. The oldest traditions (Judges 21:19; I Sam. 1:3) mention a yearly festival of thanksgiving ("hillulim": Judges 9:27) after the vintage; and it is this festival which even later is called the festival (I Kings 8:2, 8:65; 12:32, 12:33; comp. Ezek. xlv. 25; Neh. 8:14). It was celebrated first by dancing in the vineyards (Judges xxi. 21); later, by processions to festal halls ("leshakot"; I Sam. 9:22), with music (Isa. 30:29)?at Shiloh, for example (I Sam. 1:3), at Beth -el (I Kings 12:32), and at Jerusalem (I Kings 6:38, 8:2; Isa. 29:1). As these festivals increased, the necessity arose of regulating them and of fixing them for certain seasons of the year; hence, in Isa. 29:1 allusion is made to a regular cycle of the "ḥaggim" circuiting the year.

Hajj/Hag Ha-Sukkot: Exo. 10:9, Exo. 5:1, Exo. 3:18, Exo. 13:4, Exo. 23:14-17, Exo 34:22-24, Deut 16:13-16, Neh. 8:9-12, Neh. 2:1, Lev. 23:9-21, Est. 8:9
Surah 20:59
Baca (Hebrew 'emeq habakka'): Psalm 84:1-12, Surah 3:96

The Jewish Encyclopedia was very informative on circambulation:

Extension of Sukkot.

The seventh day of the festival is distinguished as the "great Hosha'na" (the Gospel accounts of Jesus' entry on Palm Sunday seem to have confused this with Pesaḥ), or "the day of the palm-and willow-branches" (Suk. 42-45). Carrying in their hands branches at least eleven feet long, the celebrants make seven circuits around the desk, chanting "Hosha'na" (Ps. cxviii. 25), and then beat the floor with the branches. This custom, said to be of Mosaic origin, is undoubtedly an adaptation of a Babylonian rite (Yer. 'Ab. Zarah iv.).

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=125&letter=F&search=festivals#ixzz14zyFgyVJ

The Quran details exactly what we are to do for Hajj, and what to do if you cannot make the trip. None of the pagan rituals are in the Quran, and that includes stoning an idol or circambulation.

Allah also gives warning:
"And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah?s guidance, that is the guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper." Surah 2:120

Be careful of the Yahudians posing as Muslims to lead you astray.

That includes all those who say the Dome of the Rock is our qiblah.

Peace.

[herbman]

Peace all,

In addition to the fact that the majority of the passages in the great reading that talk about "hagg" refer to food and that eating and feeding the poor is its main purpose and that the people of the book clearly understood "hagg" as "feast, here is an ancient inscription from the 8th century BCE clearly showing the meaning of "hagg" as "feast":

http://ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/

I think that, objectively speaking, the debate is over.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman, all,

regarding what I underlined, why do you use the term "hagg" in hebrew for hajj in arabic?

Again why do you translate an arabic word with a hebrew definition?

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

my last question to you:
how do you "witness benefits for mankind" by doing a feast?  I would personnaly make a kind of "demonstration" of "God's system" so people can witness the benefits of it.

Peace

[ayman]

Peace Imraan,

While I see much of what you are saying in the Quran and agree with much of it, I find the insistence that hajj being a feast rather than a feast being part of the hajj to be an inadequate understanding. The link you posted seems to say that a hajj was established in the chamber. It then seems to say that there was food involved. I am not an familiar with the details regarding this, so I can't say for sure. However, I think that even in this inscription it may be possible to consider the feeding as part of a broader concept.
At any rate, my investigation into the hajj concept is getting closer to conclusion and I thank you for the thought provoking issues that you have raised in relation to this subject. I hope to post my findings soon.

The word "hajj/hagg" itself means "feast". Now a feast that takes place in a community where no partners are set with the god would certainly involve many broader concepts such as thanking the god for the food he provided and feeding the poor and fullfilling our vows and getting to know other people and serve as a role model for them and trading and prospering and witnessing benefits, etc.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Herbman,

regarding what I underlined, why do you use the term "hagg" in hebrew for hajj in arabic?

In Arabic there is no difference between "g" and "j". The word "hagg" in Arabic is exactly the same as "hajj". It is just different pronunciation depending on dialect.

Again why do you translate an arabic word with a hebrew definition?

1. First and foremost the Hebrew meaning of "feast" clearly fits the context of hagg/hajj in the great reading where 80% of the passages talk about food.

2. The concept of "hajj/hagg" existed since the time of Abraham and must have been well known to the people of the book and all people for this matter. Certainly it was known to Moses who was most likely hired as a laborer for 8 harvest feasts and not 8 "debates".

3. Arabic is like any human language. It didn't descend from the sky and it is relatively young compared to other Semitic languages. So it borrows heavily from other older and contemporary languages. There are many Arabic words in the great reading borrowed from foreign languages, even ones that are not Semitic like Persian, Greek and Latin. Of course Arabic borrows more heavily from Semitic languages such as Hebrew, Syriac, Sabaic, and Ethiopic. For example:

minsaah/staff (34:14) from Hebrew
yatasannah/changed (2:259) from the Hebrew root sh-n-y/?to change?
salaam/peace (extensively used) from Hebrew
katab/write (extensively used) from Hebrew
dars/study (3:79, etc.) from Hebrew
sabbah/praise (extensively used) from Syriac

One has to be careful because it is often that languages share common words that may have opposite meanings when transported between languages. A famous example is ?wathab?, which means ?jump? in Arabic and ?sit? in Hebrew.

For the purpose of this discussion, I will classify foreign borrowed words into three categories:

1. Words that failed to be Arabized and so failed to become productive roots. Examples include istabraq/silk brocade, zanjabil/ginger, firdaws/paradise, etc.

2. Words that had no Arabic roots but became fully Arabized and produced productive roots. Examples include jund/soldiers, hizb/faction, etc.

3. Words for which there were Arabic roots but not in the foreign meaning. These easily assimilated into Arabic and became productive but we got very divergent and unrelated meanings. For example, the Arabic root ?sabah? means ?to swim? (79:3, 21:33, 36:40) but ?sabbah? (borrowed from Syriac) means ?to praise?.

I believe that ?hagg/hajj? falls under the third classification where there was already an Arabic root and therefore it was easily assimilated from Hebrew. However, like the ?sabah? example above, the Arabic root was in the meaning of ?argument? while the assimilated Hebrew word had the meaning of ?feast?.  This is why we got those divergent and unrelated meanings.

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

You are referring to following theology while I am only concerned with linguistics. It is irrelevant what misunderstood religious practices Jews do during their feast and this doesn?t change the linguistic meaning. All people had harvest feasts regardless of their religious affiliations or specific practices.

my last question to you:
how do you "witness benefits for mankind" by doing a feast?  I would personnaly make a kind of "demonstration" of "God's system" so people can witness the benefits of it.

I agree with you. It is natural that a community that doesn?t set partners with the god would be an excellent demonstration.

Peace,

Ayman

[Joe Betik]

salam all,

at this moment i strongly believe that the meaning of 'alhajj' is explained in 2:197, i.e. "Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun".

generally "maAAloomat" is translated as "well-known". more examples here (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=197;)

but is that translation correct?

here is the entry by Hans Wehr:

AA-l-m: (maAAloom) known; fixed, determined, given; of course! certainly! sure! no doubt! (as an affirmative reply); known quantity (math.); (almaAAloom) the active voice (gram.); - pl. (maAAaleem) fixed sum, fixed rate (money); fixed income; tax, duty, fee; sum, amount, cost(s) | (maAAloom alhayawanat) impost on livestock (Tun.); - pl. (maAAloomat) knowledge, lore, learning, perceptions, discoveries, findings; known facts; information, data; news, tidings

but there is the problem of "ashhurun" which is usually understood as a plural for "shahr".

interestingly both "ashhurun" and "maAAloomatun" are plurals. as such the impending question is, what would be the months for "alhajj"?

the current practice of "alhajj" is during the (only) month of "thoo alhijjah" (between the 8th to the 12th). more info on this here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj).

if we were to adhere to God's command, when we took "alhajj" to mean "the pilgrimage", then we should investigate the other month(s) in question. otherwise we would qualify as deniers (mukaththibeen).

if really "alhajj" were to mean "the pilgrimage", or even "feast" could the following phrase in the verse be of utmost importance? lets read 2:197 further.

faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafatha wala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajji

didn't that phrase gave important guidelines for performing "alhajj"?

while i don't argue against other people's idea of "alhajj" as "the pilgrimage" or "the feast", personally i must first secure some valid proofs and pointers before forming my own personal comprehensions regarding "alhajj".

verses in "albaqarah" and others seem to suggest to me that "alhajj" is most likely to mean "the persuasion". the first part of 2:197 is "the persuasion (alhajj) is the propagations (ashoorun) of information/perceptions/discoveries (maAAloomatun)".

try this idea, if you wish, for other verses of the qur-an where "alhajj" occurs and you may perhaps find the most likely meaning of "alhajj". don't let our prejudice fool us in our search for the truth. nor let the dictionaries or other language tools to restrain our efforts too. you may in the end discover that "alhajj" may not mean "the persuasion" after all, but we need to search without the prejudice. let God guide us to acquire the truth. insha-Allah.

peace
mohammed noh

[ayman]

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

A fourth point that I forgot to add is the following:

4. If you look closely at the inscription in http://ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/ it was actually inscribed by pagans not Jews and yet it uses the word "hagg" in the same sense of "feast". So this was not a religious term that belonged to a specific religious group such as the Jews. The meaing of "hagg/hajj" as feast was clearly part of the ordinary language of people regardless of religious affiliation.

Peace,

Ayman

[1CELOSTNOWFOUND]

Peace ayman,

Early on in this thread you made reference to nafaqa and how the root brings about contradictory meanings. Can you please post the link where you discuss this? I hope that I haven't misrepresented your post as I couldn't find it.

Imraan

[Wilson]

Peace,

Peace ayman,

Early on in this thread you made reference to nafaqa and how the root brings about contradictory meanings. Can you please post the link where you discuss this? I hope that I haven't misrepresented your post as I couldn't find it.

Imraan

Discussed here, and here. And the reference you were looking for is somewhere in the last part of THIS post.


Abdelilah

[san]

It won't be as contradictory as you think, if you can see the pattern:  "to come out of a hole; to enter into another hole where there is another outlet" (taken from PRL online, root nun-fa-qaf)

a hypocrite enters an "inlet" (e.g. of faith) only to come out from another "outlet" (along the line of that faith).

a sum of wealth enters one of your pockets/wallets/accounts/ways to be spent out from one of your other pockets/wallets/accounts/ways


(think of "tunnel/channel" in English)



::: my bad, irrelevant example now removed

[herbman]

Peace Ayman, all,

First, thanks for your time and answer.

You then translate hajj = feast.  This is the noon Al hajj = The feast

How would you translate the verbe.  As in "faman hajja al baita".

 
I guess you will use a completly different word, but the question is why would you use different meanings for a word with the same root.  I know sometimes it occurs but still 99% of the words share the same root to describe an action (verb) and the object derived from the action (noon), e.g root Ka-ta-ba
action kataba= to write
object: al kitab = the book
(I know you know this, this is for the audience)
Peace