Haajja - Hajja - alhajj - alhaaj - hajju albayt - hajja alba

[marie]

Peace Ayman,

if I have said 'I always keep my translation : God Has made the kaab’a the restricted bayt ' that doesn't means I keep it until te day of judgement but until a new analysis, nobody holds the truth. For the moment I do not agree with the others on certain points but I would not say that they are wrong because I will be able to change opinion

Peace

[marie]

Peace,

In verse 2:127, "alqawaAAid" are what stops the building from falling.

I will say : "alqawaAAid" are the bases which stops the building from falling

If the "base/foundations" in 2:127 and 16:26 is a physical base/foundations, then how can Ibrahim and IsmaAAel "raise" the base/foundations from the "house"? Any construction engineer will tell you that it is the house that rises from the foundation not the other way around. Physically, the foundation is dug in and not "raised".

We do not have the same vision in space.
You say the foundation is dug, OK
One does not stop at this stage, We digs a ditch around the perimeter of construction (ex: one meter of depth) then, we build a wall from the bottom of the ditch in direction of the sky , we pour concrete, the unit will be used as support for this base. This is why I say The base and the building are raised. that pushes like mushrooms  

Peace

[marie]

Ayman wrote :

Thank you and brother Nasser for your help with "AATaQ". Now, the next question is how do we know if the expression "al-bayt al-aatiq" in 22:29 and 22:33 means:

- the ancient house.
- the freeing house.

I think if God doesn't use the verb AAataqa to say to free slave it is in order to avoid confusion with the word AAatiq.

Personally I would choose 'the freeing house'.  if the verb (AAataqa) or the word AAitq were used for saying to free slave.. in the quran.

Peace

[ayman]

I will say : "alqawaAAid" are the bases which stops the building from falling

Peace Marie,

I totally agree. Verses 9:109-110 tell us what these bases are.

We do not have the same vision in space.
You say the foundation is dug, OK
One does not stop at this stage, We digs a ditch around the perimeter of construction (ex: one meter of depth) then, we build a wall from the bottom of the ditch in direction of the sky , we pour concrete, the unit will be used as support for this base. This is why I say The base and the building are raised. that pushes like mushrooms

You are absolutely right, the physical base of the building is raised "from" the ground and the house is raised "from" its physical base. However, the verse clearly says the reverse and hence you still haven't answered my question: How can Ibrahim and IsmaAAel "raise" the base/foundations "from" the "house"?

Perhaps you mean like an upside down mushroom

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

[Someone]

Salam Marie and Ayman,

I think in Arabic 'bayt' means also a 'verse', like in poetry, with the plural 'abyate' like in 'abyate shi'iriya'. But I didn't find this meaning in the lexicon.

Some hints??

[marie]

You are absolutely right, the physical base of the building is raised "from" the ground and the house is raised "from" its physical base. However, the verse clearly says the reverse and hence you still haven't answered my question: How can Ibrahim and IsmaAAel "raise" the base/foundations "from" the "house"?
Perhaps you mean like an upside down mushroom

peace Ayman,

by reading the verse in this way, you are right to speak about an upside down mushroom.

I translate the begenning of the verse 2:127 as : ...Abraham raised the foundation / bases of the bayt..

min or mina doesn't always mean from some thing but also of  for example mina alAAilmi (science), mina alththamarati (fruits), mina Allahi ..

Peace

Marie

[ayman]

I think if God doesn't use the verb AAataqa to say to free slave it is in order to avoid confusion with the word AAatiq.

Peace Marie,

Thank you for your answer.

I agree that "3ateeq" probably doesn't mean "freeing". Hence, it could have the meaning of ancient or perhaps some other meaning.

Perhaps verse 3:96 holds the answer:

3:96. The first?/foremost? house placed for the people is the one in "bakka?", blessed and a guidance for the worlds.

In verse 3:96, the word "awal" can mean "foremost" or "first". If it is interpreted to mean first house then "3ateeq" probably does mean "ancient".

Now the question is does "AWL" in 3:96 mean "first" or "foremost"?

In verses such as 2:41, 6:14, 6:163, 39:12, 7:143, 26:51, and 43:81 "AWL" can be interpreted as "foremost".

However, there are many other occurrences of "AWL" which point to a different meaning than "foremost". For example, 6:94, 6:110, 9:13, 9:83, 17:7, 17:51, 18:48, 36:79, 41:21 the word is used to mean the first time/originally and "foremost" would not make any sense in the context of those verses.

In verse 20:65, the word "AWL" is used to indicate that the magicians started first before Moussa and they were certainly not "foremost" since Moussa won.

In verse 21:104 and 50:15 it could mean the original.

In verse 59:2, it could mean the first/or the start.

In verses 5:114 and 9:100 it could mean the first/ the starting.

Verses 20:21 it is used to mean original form.

In verses 7:38, 7:39, and 17:5 it is used to mean the first.

Similarly, "foremost" would not make much sense in verses 17:59, 21:5, 23:81, 37:17, and 56:48.

In fact, in the vast majority of verses where "AWL" or one its derivatives occur, "foremost" would not make any sense while "first/original" would.

For more examples, see verses 6:25, 8:31, 8:38, 15:10, 15:13, 16:24, 18:55, 23:24, 23:68, 23:83, 25:5, 26:26, 26:137, 26:184, 26:196, 27:68, 28:36, 35:43, 37:71, 37:126, 38:168, 43:6, 43:8, 44:8, 46:17, 56:13, 56:39, 56:49, 68:15, 77:16, 77:38, 83:13.

Additionally, see verses 20:51, 20:133, 28:43, 28:70, 33:33, 37:59, 44:35, 44:56, 53:25, 53:50, 53:56, 56:62, 79:25, 87:18, 92:13, 93:4 which also do not support the interpretation of "AWAL" as "foremost".

If "foremost" is adopted, then it becomes important to know what "bakka" means.

On the other hand, if "first" is adopted then it is not important to know what "bakka" means (or where it is) and it can be interpreted as a proper name of a place ("Bakka"). If that understanding is adopted then, from the reading, there is no indication that the first house is the only house. In fact, by pointing attention to "Bakka" as merely the location of the first house, the verse indicates that there are other subsequent houses.

For now, based on your interpretation of verses 22:29 and 22:33, and analysis of all the verses where "AWL" occurs, my understanding is that "AWL" merely means "first".

Please let me know what you think.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

[marie]

Peace Ayman,

First of all, thank you for this synthesis  :wink:

As my English level is weak, I don't see the difference between 'the first' and 'the formost', my translator posts me the same result for both.

In verses such as 2:41, 6:14, 6:163, 39:12, 7:143, 26:51, and 43:81 "AWL" can be interpreted as "foremost"

In my view, to translate ‘awal’ in these verses as ‘the first’ is correct.

On the other hand, if "first" is adopted then it is not important to know what "bakka" means (or where it is) and it can be interpreted as a proper name of a place ("Bakka"). If that understanding is adopted then, from the reading, there is no indication that the first house is the only house. In fact, by pointing attention to "Bakka" as merely the location of the first house, the verse indicates that there are other subsequent houses.

I’ll choose ‘the first’ as a translation for the word awal in the verse 3 :96 and I consider Bakka as a place and may be the word Bakka can have some meaning probably in connection to the old practices on this place.

Peace

Marie

[ayman]

I don't see the difference between 'the first' and 'the formost', my translator posts me the same result for both.

I?ll choose ?the first? as a translation for the word awal in the verse 3 :96 and I consider Bakka as a place and may be the word Bakka can have some meaning probably in connection to the old practices on this place.

Peace Marie,

Foremost = ultimate/best = meilleur

First = starting = premier

There is a big difference between saying:

(1) My best friend is Joe

and

(2) My first friend is Joe

Number (1) means that Joe is still your friend and is your ultimate/formost friend. Number (2) implies that you have had other subsequent friends and the only special thing about Joe was that he was the first.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

[marie]

Peace Ayman,

Thank  for your clear explanation. Now I can see the difference between them.

About the verse you quoted, I choose the same translation as you ie awal = the first that appears more coherent to me with the verses where we read 'awal bayt' and 'bayt al-3atiq'

God bless

Marie