hajj / feast / debate

[Wakas]

peace brother Ayman,

Not long ago, I used to think that "hajj" means "debate" too. However, in reality when we read the purpose of the "hajj" in 22:28 we see that it is to witness benefits and to remember the name of the god on what he gave us from the livestock. We are told to eat from it and feed the poor. In fact, if we carefully read the whole passage from 22:27-37, we can realize that 90% of it is about the livestock. So this is about eating and feeding others the livestock's meat. What do we call that? This is a feast.

I agree that "hajj" includes what you mentioned above. However, AQ seems to give a clear pointer as to the central purpose of "hajj", the feast is secondary/after:

My translation:

Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable. [2:158]

See the following post for the detailed reasoning behind the above translation:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8795.msg40400#msg40400


Background reading:
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

[Tlepsh]

Peace Ayman,
ح جج
= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.
hajja vb. (1)
perf. act. 2:158
n.vb. 2:189, 2:196, 2:196, 2:196, 2:197, 2:197, 2:197, 3:97, 9:3, 22:27
pcple. act. 9:19
hijaj n.f. (pl. of hijjah) 28:27
hujjah n.f. 2:150, 4:165, 6:83, 6:149, 42:15, 42:16, 45:25
hajja vb. (3)
perf. act. 2:258, 3:20, 3:61, 3:66, 6:80
impf. act. 2:76, 2:139, 3:65, 3:66, 3:73, 6:80, 42:16
tahajja vb. (6) impf. act. 40:47
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page: 149, 150, 151      (From PRL-online)

When you check all the occurrences of the word hajj and its derivatives in Quran you sea that almost all of them are related to meanings such as debate, argue, plea, proof, evidence, testimony. On the other hand the meaning of feast in classical dictionaries and in verse 5.114 is clearly mentioned to be ?3eed? not ?hajj?. God repeats many times in Quran that Quran is in plain Arabic that was used by the ?ummiyeen? ordinary people. As you explained in details in one of your excellent articles (Language Barrier) it was not in the language of Ahlul kitab who were living in fortified castles and using another language ?a3jami? in their affairs of religion. But unfortunately now you are trying to prove your argument by using words from ?a3jami? while in the Quran the word Hajj is clearly and plainly used to mean debate. So allow me to tell you that your ?hujja? is week here.

Peace.

[truthseeker11]

Peace everyone,

I think "hajj" as used in the qur'aan means "undertaking/venture/enterprise" for the purpose of trading, exchanging ideas, and feasting according to the context of "witnessing benefits for mankind" and "feeding from animal livestock". Witnessing benefits implies an annual market/symposium/fair in which mankind comes from all over to trade with each other and exchange ideas about technology etc. and there is associated feast with free food for people who travel from all over. That is the only way mankind can be invited with the hajj. There is no way that entire mankind can be invited with a debate.

From PRL:

= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.

Keeping the purpose of hajj in mind of witnessing benefits and feasting, I think that the proper translation of the word "hajj" as used in the qur'aan would be "undertaking/venture/enterprise". It can neither be "debate" as explained above, nor "feast" alone. Undertaking means "venture/enterprise" according to English dictionaries. From thefreedictionary.com:

un?der?tak?ing (ndr-tkng)
n.
1. A task or assignment undertaken; a venture.
2. A guaranty, engagement, or promise.
3. The profession or duties of a funeral director.

The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ?2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
undertaking
Noun
1. a task or enterprise
2. an agreement to do something
3. Informal the practice of overtaking on an inner lane a vehicle which is travelling in an outer lane

Collins Essential English Dictionary 2nd Edition 2006 ? HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006

I would translate "hajj" as "undertaking/venture/enterprise".

22:27 And call out to the people with the undertaking/venture/enterprise, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.

[ayman]

Peace Supernaut,

So people owe it to the god (3:97) to come from the farthest locations (22:27) just to get together to eat meat and thank the god for the meat? Kind of extravagant and pointless if you can ask me because you can eat meat at home and still thank the god for the meat. I think understanding hajj as a symposium makes more sense.

A feast is a kind of symposium with the added benefit of free food. This is the only way to invite all people. Remember that Ibrahim invited people WITH the "hajj"/feast. It is a tool to bring people together to a location where there is community that doesn't set up partners with the god (22:26). Can you invite ALL people to a religious symposium? Defintely not. If it is a so-called "Quran Alone" symposium then only Quran Alone people will bother. If it is a Sunni symposium then only Sunnis will bother.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace brother Wakas,

I agree that "hajj" includes what you mentioned above. However, AQ seems to give a clear pointer as to the central purpose of "hajj", the feast is secondary/after:
My translation:
Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable. [2:158]
See the following post for the detailed reasoning behind the above translation:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8795.msg40400#msg40400
Background reading:
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

If you read the beginning of this thread back in 2004, you will see that I used to think that "hajj" meant "debate" too. I now clearly see that I was wrong.

From 2:158, it shows that the animals and the stone that they are slaughtered/cooked on is an integral part of the "hajj". There is no mention at all of any kind of thing related to debate. In fact, we are clearly told not to argue/debate during the feast (2:197). Clearly, any "convincing" that will happen during the feast will only happen by virtue of it being in a place where no partners are setup with the god and thus by people WITNESSING the good example of such community and not by debating.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Tlepsh,

ح جج
= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.
hajja vb. (1)
perf. act. 2:158
n.vb. 2:189, 2:196, 2:196, 2:196, 2:197, 2:197, 2:197, 3:97, 9:3, 22:27
pcple. act. 9:19
hijaj n.f. (pl. of hijjah) 28:27
hujjah n.f. 2:150, 4:165, 6:83, 6:149, 42:15, 42:16, 45:25
hajja vb. (3)
perf. act. 2:258, 3:20, 3:61, 3:66, 6:80
impf. act. 2:76, 2:139, 3:65, 3:66, 3:73, 6:80, 42:16
tahajja vb. (6) impf. act. 40:47
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page: 149, 150, 151      (From PRL-online)
When you check all the occurrences of the word hajj and its derivatives in Quran you sea that almost all of them are related to meanings such as debate, argue, plea, proof, evidence, testimony.

I disagree. The ones that talk about "HaG" clearly do not. This is what we are trying to prove or disprove.

Arabic is full of inconsistencies. I already showed you the example of "NiFAQ" (hypocrisy) and "INFAQ" (spending) which carry two completely different meanings despite being from the same root NFQ.

On the other hand the meaning of feast in classical dictionaries and in verse 5.114 is clearly mentioned to be ?3eed? not ?hajj?.

"3eed" means celebration and not "feast". A "celebration" can involve a "feast" but not necessarily.

God repeats many times in Quran that Quran is in plain Arabic that was used by the ?ummiyeen? ordinary people. As you explained in details in one of your excellent articles (Language Barrier) it was not in the language of Ahlul kitab who were living in fortified castles and using another language ?a3jami? in their affairs of religion. But unfortunately now you are trying to prove your argument by using words from ?a3jami? while in the Quran the word Hajj is clearly and plainly used to mean debate. So allow me to tell you that your ?hujja? is week here.

Your point would be valid if it were a religious word. The fact is that there are many words in Arabic are borrowed from other languages. The word "HaG" is not a religious word. It is a mundane word that is used to describe a thing that is essentially a harvest feast were people from ALL religions and creeds came. The correct argument that you presented actually negates that it means "arguing/debating for a certain religion" or "making a specific religious pilgrimage" since the Arabic language wouldn't have been the vehicle for expressing religion-specific concepts.

Peace,

Ayman

[Pseudo]

Peace Ayman,

If you read the beginning of this thread back in 2004, you will see that I used to think that "hajj" meant "debate" too. I now clearly see that I was wrong.

From 2:158, it shows that the animals and the stone that they are slaughtered/cooked on is an integral part of the "hajj". There is no mention at all of any kind of thing related to debate. In fact, we are clearly told not to argue/debate during the feast (2:197). Clearly, any "convincing" that will happen during the feast will only happen by virtue of it being in a place where no partners are setup with the god and thus by people WITNESSING the good example of such community and not by debating.

Albanian religious communities foster co-operation
http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2009/01/21/feature-03

This is hajj hey, (who wudda thunk it) in Albania...

[ayman]

Peace Truthseeker,

I think "hajj" as used in the qur'aan means "undertaking/venture/enterprise" for the purpose of trading, exchanging ideas, and feasting according to the context of "witnessing benefits for mankind" and "feeding from animal livestock". Witnessing benefits implies an annual market/symposium/fair in which mankind comes from all over to trade with each other and exchange ideas about technology etc. and there is associated feast with free food for people who travel from all over. That is the only way mankind can be invited with the hajj. There is no way that entire mankind can be invited with a debate.

I agree with you. However, I believe that by virtue of being a community where no partners are set up with the god "trading and exchanging ideas and venture" will happen ALL the time. The key here is "witness". So even if people who come and don't participate in "trading and exchanging ideas and venture", they will still witness these benefits by virtue of seeing and experiencing a community that doesn't setup partners with the god. So when people come for the feast, the other things will happen naturally and they will always happen anyway in a community that truly doesn't setup partners with the god. On the other hand, "hajj" is clearly a SEASONAL event and not surprisingly it takes place at a time where LIVESTOCK and CROPS are MOST plentiful. So the "feast" is what distinguishes it from any other regular time. This is all empirically verifiable and as you say "there is no way that entire mankind can be invited with a debate" but we can with a feast. I have faith that all the other benefits will automatically come as a result of people witnessing the community where no partners are setup with the god.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Pseudo,

Albanian religious communities foster co-operation
http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2009/01/21/feature-03
This is hajj hey, (who wudda thunk it) in Albania...

But seriously, if Albania ever becomes a place where no partners are setup with the god then it would be the location of the inviolable house.

Peace,

Ayman

[Wakas]

peace brother Ayman,

You never addressed the main point I was trying to highlight, but I will clarify this time in case I was not clear.

From 2:158, it shows that the animals and the stone that they are slaughtered/cooked on is an integral part of the "hajj".

Exactly, but IF the primary purpose of the "hajj" is "feast" as you say then why does the verse say "there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them"? To say this for something that is the very purpose of them being there for the "hajj/feast" would be illogical.

In fact, we are clearly told not to argue/debate during the feast (2:197).

The word you refer to is "jidal" not "hajj". In fact, the verse you refer to proves there is a difference between "jidal" and "hajj". We can easily see that the Classical Arabic meanings of "jidal" refer to a more vehement form or arguing, thus the guidance fits perfectly for "hajj" being a conference/symposium.

Clearly, any "convincing" that will happen during the feast will only happen by virtue of it being in a place where no partners are setup with the god and thus by people WITNESSING the good example of such community and not by debating.

So, "convincing" is not possible by debate as well as witnessing good examples? Is this your position?


Out of curiousity, do you translate "hajj" as "feast" in AQ? If so, can you provide us with a translation of 2:158? Thanks.

That is the only way mankind can be invited with the hajj. There is no way that entire mankind can be invited with a debate.

This is all empirically verifiable and as you say "there is no way that entire mankind can be invited with a debate" but we can with a feast.

Firstly, the word here is "al hajj", i.e. the conference/symposium [22:27]
I fail to see the point being made here. Can either of you clarify/expand why mankind cannot be invited or called to with the conference/symposium? In fact, it implies "al hajj" can be utilised as a communication vehicle/medium to call out with, and this fits more with conference/symposium than feast.