Author Topic: The Prayer Issue Revived  (Read 53906 times)

runninglikezebras

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #310 on: May 07, 2015, 05:54:58 AM »
I agree with Wakas' analysis of sujud.  In most literal sense it means to submit.  As such the word sujud can't be an argument for any ritual prostration.  But it does not exclude it either.

Is God asking us to submit our will to Him at fixed times only?  I doubt it.

How does one express submission on fixed times?  I'd say prostating is an excellent way of expressing such a thing.

Peace

ps: this correlates with my understanding of malaika as being controllers of the laws of nature.  They submit to man's will entirely.  Just think about it, when you make yourself a cup of tea or coffee how many forces of nature are submitting to your will.  It's worth pondering upon.  Only Iblis refused. 

Wakas

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #311 on: May 07, 2015, 08:13:01 AM »
...the verse can be interpreted by taking salaat as a system, suzud as submit etc. (the way brother Wakas has suggested)...



To clarify, I did not suggest that.

Here is my view on salat:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

amin

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #312 on: May 07, 2015, 09:42:58 AM »
Salam Novice:

I did not claim to interpret the verse 4:102 - I only attempted to provide a translation on best effort basis.

1. I usually leave salaat untranslated. Per my humble understanding, the literal meaning of this word is close to ?reverence? or ?respect?, but it also has an implied implication of a ritual to attest/rehearse ?reverence? or ?respect? for the Almighty. Somewhat like the English word ?salute? which can mean to show respect (?I salute your courage?) as well as a gesture to show respect (?The soldier saluted his Captain.?).  I do not find an appropriate English word to convey both sides of the meaning of the word salaat so I find keeping it as ?salaat? to be most meaningful.

2. Good that you noted. In English You is both singular and plural. It is one of the reason it is always best to pay attention to the original Arabic text.

3-5. I do not insist on literal interpretation of verses? for me verses are signs. In particular I do not believe this verse or any verse in Qur?an describes a step by step ritual. I have observed that the Qur?an narrator has intentionally kept ritual related commands vague ? and I believe the implication is obvious. The mechanism of ritual has been left for the messenger and his community. So, to me reconstructing the rituals based on Quranic wording alone is a redundant and futile exercise.

Specifically in this case, I do not see this verse to clearly elaborate on how salaat ritual needs to be conducted during war situation - it merely gives the messenger a permission to conduct the salaat in phases with diffurrent groups - allowing him maximum flexibility on how this will be practiced.

When I study this verse or any verse, my primary contention is what do I take away from this verse. The signs which are obvious for me from 4:102-103 are:

1.   Periodic salaat ritual has endorsement from Qur?an
2.   Group salaat ritual with a leader has endorsement from Qur?an
3.   Do not emphasize means (arms) over the end (precaution).

Beyond this if you see any other sign, please feel free to share, I am open to learning.

I'd also like to add - that I admit the verse can be interpreted by taking salaat as a system, suzud as submit etc. (the way brother Wakas has suggested); but for me such an interpretation would be a secondary interpretation. I cannot take that secondary interpretation as the only possible meaning rejecting the obvious primary interpretation.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Salam Arman,

Good explanation,

Salat is to accept God's authority over everything and Sujud is part of the Salat for  symbolically giving our acceptance.
here the ritual part is least important, but  remember his nature by reciting verses related to Him and accept his authority looks to be the core  part of Salat.

Regards,
Amin.

Arman

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #313 on: May 07, 2015, 06:56:22 PM »
I agree with Wakas' analysis of sujud.  In most literal sense it means to submit.  As such the word sujud can't be an argument for any ritual prostration.  But it does not exclude it either.

 :bravo:

Same here.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Arman

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #314 on: May 08, 2015, 02:43:48 AM »
Salamun Alaikum.

Just to make sure... my request does not get hidden behind several new messages:

I am eagerly waiting to see the translation of verses 4:102-103 from brother Tahir (User:Novice).

Since I have honored his request to produce a translation and brother has rejected my translation - hope this is a fair request.

May Allah enable us to augment each other in knowledge and wisdom.

Best regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Man of Faith

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #315 on: May 08, 2015, 06:22:59 AM »
Ahh, 4:102-103, the height of deception by the medieval interpreters who twisted Quran into a book of rituals and heavy warfare.

Salaam
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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #316 on: May 08, 2015, 12:57:06 PM »
Salamun Alaikum.

Just to make sure... my request does not get hidden behind several new messages:

I am eagerly waiting to see the translation of verses 4:102-103 from brother Tahir (User:Novice).

Since I have honored his request to produce a translation and brother has rejected my translation - hope this is a fair request.

May Allah enable us to augment each other in knowledge and wisdom.

Best regards,
Arman

Salam Brother Arman
First let me apologize for a delayed reply as I have a very busy schedule these days and secondly I did not mean to create an art work it happened by accident. You can try it too by omitting "/" before the word quote at the end of statement.  :laugh:

The reason I asked you and MoF to give your translation of 4:102-103 was that the available translations do not satisfy me. My last reply phrased few of the questions I had in my mind. I never claimed that I have a better translation of the ayats. Rather I am trying to find answers to my questions in this regard.

I am clear at this moment that As-salat in the Qur'an is not the ritual prayer as per Hadith literature. I mentioned in one the threads that for me As-salat is something to follow very closely and this "something" is given in the context in the Qur'an.

In the case of 4:103-104 context is war so As-salat has to be the strategy/planning for the war and Sajda has to be the submission to it, as per my humble understanding. Look at the start of ayat 4:103 فَإِذَا قَضَيۡتُمُ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ
Most of the translations say "when you have finished the prayer" The word "Qada" means to decide e.g. 2:117 وَإِذَا قَضَىٰٓ أَمۡرً۬ا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ ۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ "and when He decides a matter then He says to it BE and it happens". So if we translate  فَإِذَا قَضَيۡتُمُ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ  as "so when you all decide As-salat" the scene changes which is confirmed by 4:104وَلَا تَهِنُواْ فِى ٱبۡتِغَآءِ ٱلۡقَوۡمِ‌ۖ and do not be weak in pursuing these people.

I would suggest brother to consider the subject of ayats before and after 4:102-103. This might help in getting a better translation/understanding of the subject ayats. I cannot give a translation at this time because there are few unanswered questions but I can only say that available translations do not make sense to me.

Brother Wakas has suggesting very helpful links in his post which have given me more points to consider while understanding these ayats.

May the Al-Mighty guide us to the correct understanding.

Regards


amin

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #317 on: May 08, 2015, 09:56:41 PM »
Ahh, 4:102-103, the height of deception by the medieval interpreters who twisted Quran into a book of rituals and heavy warfare.

Salaam

MOF,
Yes but my view is
Salat the word need not represent the ritual act, but the ritual or the timed act needed for many to be connected with HIM.

Arman

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #318 on: May 09, 2015, 12:31:12 AM »
I would suggest brother to consider the subject of ayats before and after 4:102-103. This might help in getting a better translation/understanding of the subject ayats. I cannot give a translation at this time because there are few unanswered questions but I can only say that available translations do not make sense to me.


Salam brother:

Thanks for your honest and frank opinion. As I mentioned earlier I have carefully considered Salaat exclusively as following and suzud exclusively as submission (minus all rituals)... but that has not given me a satisfactory coherent translation of 4:101-103. So, as of now I'll go with my current understanding that salaat is the mandated "respectful obedience" of our Master which is prescribed upon the faithful to be rehearsed and expressed in ritual form in periodic manner. This definition as of now gives me the most coherent understanding of all the relevant verses including 4:102-103. And of course my personal experience with salaat ritual has only strengthened my conviction.

If you find a more coherent translation of 4:101-103 in future, and we happen to be in touch, please do feel free to give me a knock. If my Master doesn't will otherwise, my door for learning will remain open.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).