Author Topic: The Prayer Issue Revived  (Read 53941 times)

hicham9

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #300 on: May 01, 2015, 07:33:48 AM »
I'm impressed @kirikanan!

I slightly agree with your (current) understanding of Ṣlwt!

QA: ṣlwh (صلوه), or: ṣlwt (صلوة) [n.f.] is a Shemitic term whose basic meaning, I understand as: Rapport, Rapprochement, Conciliation or Reconciliation, ... [from the consonantal root: ṢLʔ (صـ لـ ا) ~ to bend and/or incline (towards X)] ∴This is my (current) understanding.

Consequently, I too recognize two types of ṣlwt in the Qurān!

One is individualistic ~ prescribed upon the acknowledger/s (4:103) [scheduled at: dawn, dusk & night (11:114)]
This, I regard as a personal reunion between the servant/s and The One Master ... [the rules and/or requirements are stipulated in the Qurān]

The 2nd is generally prescribed upon the people altogether (en masse).
ie. Humans [=nations/communities/tribes/families/groups] are expected to establish and maintain harmony/agreement/concord between the parties in dispute [= to avoid animosity/discord (of opinion/belief), and spread harmony/concord/unanimity, thusly circumventing corruption on Earth] ~ see: ADR


Ps. No wonder the Mid-East was and still is at war, subject to foreign occupation, and war crimes ...

[Mentally] primitive/backward people, [Morally] vicious, [physically] weak, and [theologically] divided,  ...

My people have forsaken the Guidance (25:30), ... and ṣlwt with it (19:59).

SLM
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

Man of Faith

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #301 on: May 01, 2015, 09:31:33 AM »
In ways saad-lam-waw (ص ل و) could be regarded as connection because it is that you choose to follow someone, namely GOD. In that you keep the connection.

However, the true dictionary definition for the root is to (make) follow someone or something (guide), not necessarily literally but through your perception, and imitation.

The object صلوة is the followed entity, quite abstract and ambiguous it may seem, but it refers to guidance (of GOD). It is no ritual prayer, obviously.

This should not be confused or mixed up with هدى (huda) which does not mean guide but it means "grace/gift" rather than what is traditionally conceived.

Salaam
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Arman

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #302 on: May 03, 2015, 08:56:41 PM »
Salam kirikanan.

I agree to most of your analysis. However, instead of saying "As shalat - with alif lam (definitive article/isim makrifah) is always ritual at the time prescribed." I would say shalat (صَلَوٰة) refers to respect/blessing invoked by humans for Allah - generally expressed in some form of ritual - which is supposed to be "established" by incorporating respect for the Almighty in one's entire life-style (words, actions, thoughts everything).

So when Qur?an says establish salaat ? the implication is not that one merely practices a time bound ritual ? the implication is one is commanded to ?incorporate reverence of Allah in his life-style? ?which should also ideally be attested by the practitioner through prescribed regular ritualistic expression (4:103). We must not make the mistake of putting the form over substance.

Best regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #303 on: May 05, 2015, 12:45:32 AM »
Salam Arman and Man of Faith
Could you please give your translation of 4:102-103? Thanks in advance for your time.
Regards

Arman

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #304 on: May 05, 2015, 01:14:11 AM »
Salam Arman and Man of Faith
Could you please give your translation of 4:102-103? Thanks in advance for your time.
Regards

Please note below:

Quote
4:102   And when you happen to be among them so you establish for them the salaat, then let a faction of them stand with you and let them take their arms. Then when they have prostrated then let them be from behind you and let bring another faction which has not performed the salaat. So, let them perform the salaat with you and let them take their precautions and their arms. Those who repress faith desire that (only) if you neglected about your arms and amenities so that they could incline upon you a single inclination. And there is no offence upon you if there is any affliction due to rain or you happen to be ailing that you lay down your arms but you take your precautions. Indeed Allah has prepared a humiliating suffering for the ones who repress (faith).

4:103   Then when you have decreed the salaat then remember Allah standing and sitting and (reclining) on your sides ?then when you are assured then establish the salaat. Indeed the salaat happens to be prescribed upon the faithful at fixed times.


Kindly note this is my personal translation subject to review / discussion, cross checking is recommended.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Wakas

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #305 on: May 05, 2015, 02:01:27 AM »
peace,

Salam Arman and Man of Faith
Could you please give your translation of 4:102-103? Thanks in advance for your time.
Regards

For 4:102 analysis I recommend end of this article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #306 on: May 06, 2015, 11:39:07 PM »
Thanks Wakas for the link. It covers almost all of my concerns regarding sajda and masjid ul haram. I wish everyone read and reflect on it.

@Arman

Thanks for the translation but it has not helped me in understanding 4:102. To cite few points:

1- You have not translated/interpreted SALAT

2- You translated مَّعَكَ as with YOU and وَرَآٮِٕڪُمۡ as behind YOU. Arabic text has first "you" as singular but second "You" as plural

3- Your translation means first group finish sajda and then second group replaced it. So what the imam was doing during the change over and who was fighting one to one with enemy meanwhile?

4- Did imam performed sajda twice and followers only once or did imam performed two units while followers only one?

5- How can they not neglect their arms and amenities during salat (if you mean it the ritual namaz)
and so many more questions but I will stop with above only for the time being.

May be you visit the link provided by brother Wakas http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html

Please help me understand these questions.

Regards and peace

Arman

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #307 on: May 07, 2015, 12:24:44 AM »
Thanks Wakas for the link. It covers almost all of my concerns regarding sajda and masjid ul haram. I wish everyone read and reflect on it.

@Arman

Thanks for the translation but it has not helped me in understanding 4:102. To cite few points:

1- You have not translated/interpreted SALAT

2- You translated مَّعَكَ as with YOU and وَرَآٮِٕڪُمۡ as behind YOU. Arabic text has first "you" as singular but second "You" as plural

3- Your translation means first group finish sajda and then second group replaced it. So what the imam was doing during the change over and who was fighting one to one with enemy meanwhile?

4- Did imam performed sajda twice and followers only once or did imam performed two units while followers only one?

5- How can they not neglect their arms and amenities during salat (if you mean it the ritual namaz)
and so many more questions but I will stop with above only for the time being.

May be you visit the link provided by brother Wakas http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html

Please help me understand these questions.

Regards and peace

Salam Novice:

I did not claim to interpret the verse 4:102 - I only attempted to provide a translation on best effort basis.

1. I usually leave salaat untranslated. Per my humble understanding, the literal meaning of this word is close to ?reverence? or ?respect?, but it also has an implied implication of a ritual to attest/rehearse ?reverence? or ?respect? for the Almighty. Somewhat like the English word ?salute? which can mean to show respect (?I salute your courage?) as well as a gesture to show respect (?The soldier saluted his Captain.?).  I do not find an appropriate English word to convey both sides of the meaning of the word salaat so I find keeping it as ?salaat? to be most meaningful.

2. Good that you noted. In English You is both singular and plural. It is one of the reason it is always best to pay attention to the original Arabic text.

3-5. I do not insist on literal interpretation of verses? for me verses are signs. In particular I do not believe this verse or any verse in Qur?an describes a step by step ritual. I have observed that the Qur?an narrator has intentionally kept ritual related commands vague ? and I believe the implication is obvious. The mechanism of ritual has been left for the messenger and his community. So, to me reconstructing the rituals based on Quranic wording alone is a redundant and futile exercise.

Specifically in this case, I do not see this verse to clearly elaborate on how salaat ritual needs to be conducted during war situation - it merely gives the messenger a permission to conduct the salaat in phases with diffurrent groups - allowing him maximum flexibility on how this will be practiced.

When I study this verse or any verse, my primary contention is what do I take away from this verse. The signs which are obvious for me from 4:102-103 are:

1.   Periodic salaat ritual has endorsement from Qur?an
2.   Group salaat ritual with a leader has endorsement from Qur?an
3.   Do not emphasize means (arms) over the end (precaution).

Beyond this if you see any other sign, please feel free to share, I am open to learning.

I'd also like to add - that I admit the verse can be interpreted by taking salaat as a system, suzud as submit etc. (the way brother Wakas has suggested); but for me such an interpretation would be a secondary interpretation. I cannot take that secondary interpretation as the only possible meaning rejecting the obvious primary interpretation.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #308 on: May 07, 2015, 02:57:42 AM »
Salam Arman

I did not claim to interpret the verse 4:102 - I only attempted to provide a translation on best effort basis.
Quote
Yes you did not claim to interpret the verse but your translation created confusion and raised many questions. So what's the point of translating if it creates confusion.

1. I usually leave salaat untranslated. Per my humble understanding, the literal meaning of this word is close to ?reverence? or ?respect?
Quote

Sorry Arman but your understanding is not in line with the root meanings of the word. I believe each and every word in the Qur'an is important and The Almighty has used them to give us a clear message for our guidance. There cannot be any confusion if we follow the message without any preconceived concepts.

but it also has an implied implication of a ritual to attest/rehearse ?reverence? or ?respect? for the Almighty. Somewhat like the English word ?salute? which can mean to show respect (?I salute your courage?) as well as a gesture to show respect (?The soldier saluted his Captain.?).  I do not find an appropriate English word to convey both sides of the meaning of the word salaat so I find keeping it as ?salaat? to be most meaningful.
Quote

As per my humble understanding, from the root meanings, salaat is something to follow. So I see the context of the word salaat in the Qur'an and see what is there to follow.

2. Good that you noted. In English You is both singular and plural. It is one of the reason it is always best to pay attention to the original Arabic text.
Quote

So what is your understanding of this change in pronoun from you to you all.

3-5. I do not insist on literal interpretation of verses? for me verses are signs. In particular I do not believe this verse or any verse in Qur?an describes a step by step ritual.
 
Quote

I appreciate your honest conclusion that step by step ritual cannot be found in Qur'an.

I have observed that the Qur?an narrator has intentionally kept ritual related commands vague ? and I believe the implication is obvious. The mechanism of ritual has been left for the messenger and his community. So, to me reconstructing the rituals based on Quranic wording alone is a redundant and futile exercise.
Quote

That is your observation and you have all the rights to make it. My humble observation is that if the mechanism of the ritual is not there then why one must assume things to support the inherited practices.

Specifically in this case, I do not see this verse to clearly elaborate on how salaat ritual needs to be conducted during war situation - it merely gives the messenger a permission to conduct the salaat in phases with diffurrent groups - allowing him maximum flexibility on how this will be practiced.
Quote

Why assume that salaat in this verse is a ritual when the context is war and salaat may be the strategy and instructions given by the leader to be followed.

When I study this verse or any verse, my primary contention is what do I take away from this verse. The signs
which are obvious for me from 4:102-103 are:

1.   Periodic salaat ritual has endorsement from Qur?an
2.   Group salaat ritual with a leader has endorsement from Qur?an
3.   Do not emphasize means (arms) over the end (precaution).
Quote

Well like I said you have all the rights to have above understanding but as per my humble way I try to get the message by reflecting on the words used in the verses individually as well as in idioms and phrases. I do not derive meanings to validate inherited practices.

There is no compulsion in Deen so we can share our understandings and then we are free to follow what appeals to us.

I'd also like to add - that I admit the verse can be interpreted by taking salaat as a system, suzud as submit etc. (the way brother Wakas has suggested); but for me such an interpretation would be a secondary interpretation. I cannot take that secondary interpretation as the only possible meaning rejecting the obvious primary interpretation.
Quote

It is not important what we think but what is given by our Rub in the ayats. I personally try to follow what the Almighty has revealed to us in the Book.

May Allah guide us to the true understanding of His Message.

Peace and regards,
Tahir

Arman

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #309 on: May 07, 2015, 03:19:42 AM »
Salam Tahir:

Wow.. were you trying to make it a piece of art or something :)

Great, I take your points. My observation was salaat as a ritual seems to be the obvious implication from 4:102. If we take generic interpretation like salaat as "follow a system", suzud as "submission" the verse does not give a coherent meaning... but that's my understanding as of now.

Why don't you now share your translation. If you can show me your translation gives a more coherent meaning of this verse than taking salaat as a ritual - perhaps I will accept your translation.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).