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The Prayer Issue Revived

Started by c0de, February 24, 2009, 08:06:56 AM

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c0de


@ Raj-ah

Thanx for the clarifications bro  :sun:

And I will apologize to Wakas for letting my delicate sensibilities take offense so easily  ;)


PeAcE
--Mohsin E.

jonny_k

Peace "rajah",

The bruden of proof is not on the ones who dont acceot rituals which is a secular standpoint. Your not born with the knowledge of rituals and no one comes to that conclusion independently. The burdern of proof is thus on the ones claiming there are a specific set of rituals ordained by GOD. Your argument is just like the Christians saying since atheist brought up the issue that Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is ridiculous theyr the ones who shld proide proof that this wasnt so. Do you see the flaw? GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

c0de

Quote from: jonny_k on March 24, 2009, 07:33:16 AM
Peace "rajah",

The bruden of proof is not on the ones who dont acceot rituals which is a secular standpoint. Your not born with the knowledge of rituals and no one comes to that conclusion independently. The burdern of proof is thus on the ones claiming there are a specific set of rituals ordained by GOD. Your argument is just like the Christians saying since atheist brought up the issue that Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is ridiculous theyr the ones who sld proide proof. Do you see the flaw? GOD Bless!

Not exactly. The 5 prayer ritual is an established practice already which is itself proof of it. Also, since all the times are listed in the Quran, and the hadith confirms this (as it is a valid historical document whether you accept it as one or not), it does have proof.

However, the alternative position which challenges this and says that there were 3 prayers, or no prayers, has not brought any historical evidence to corroborate their claims and show that the Early Muslims prayed 3 prayers instead of 5, or any number greater or less then 5 contact prayers. All you have right now is conjecture, semantics and speculation.


PeAcE
--Mohsin E.

jonny_k

Peace "c0de",

Quote from: c0de on March 24, 2009, 07:37:49 AM
Not exactly. The 5 prayer ritual is an established practice already which is itself proof of it. Also, since all the times are listed in the Quran, and the hadith confirms this (as it is a valid historical document whether you accept it as one or not), it does have proof.

JK- According to your argument the claim that Jesus died on the cross for our sins is an established claim too. Dont you see how flawed your pt is? Infact more people around the world beleive that Jesus died on the cross for their sins than those who claim 5 daily prayers are from GOD.

Quote
However, the alternative position which challenges this and says that there were 3 prayers, or no prayers, has not brought any historical evidence to corroborate their claims and show that the Early Muslims prayed 3 prayers instead of 5, or any number greater or less then 5 contact prayers. All you have right now is conjecture, semantics and speculation.


PeAcE

JK- From the Quran alone you can unambiguously claim 3 prayers at best. And im even questioning tht. Ritual prayer doesnt make any sense whatsoever and bro ayman can provide you with more evidence than ive already presented that those were pagan rituals. But even if he couldnt it still wouldnt prove your 5 daily salat being from GOD in any way. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

c0de

Quote from: jonny_k on March 24, 2009, 07:52:54 AM
Peace "c0de",

JK- According to your argument the claim that Jesus died on the cross for our sins is an established claim too. Dont you see how flawed your pt is? Infact more people around the world beleive that Jesus died on the cross for their sins than those who claim 5 daily prayers are from GOD.

You think my point is flawed because you have not yet understood it. I never claimed that the hadith manuscripts were perfect. I claimed that they are valid historical documents (which they are). They do constitute as evidence. This is why I accept the evidence which supports my view, and reject anything which goes against the Quran and my own reason. I have that privilege. While you do not, because you do not accept the hadith at all... which basically limits your resources. You have placed these constraints on yourself, so deal with the consequences.

Quote
JK- From the Quran alone you can unambiguously claim 3 prayers at best. And im even questioning tht. Ritual prayer doesnt make any sense whatsoever and bro ayman can provide you with more evidence than ive already presented that those were pagan rituals. But even if he couldnt it still wouldnt prove your 5 daily salat being from GOD in any way. GOD Bless!

Nothing you have said has stood up to my objections on this thread, nor on our MSN chat. If you feel this Ayman can resurrect your position, please feel free to ask him to post his arguments on this thread.

PeAcE
--Mohsin E.

jonny_k

Peace "c0de",

Quote from: c0de on March 24, 2009, 08:05:48 AM
You think my point is flawed because you have not yet understood it. I never claimed that the hadith manuscripts were perfect. I claimed that they are valid historical documents (which they are). They do constitute as evidence. This is why I accept the evidence which supports my view, and reject anything which goes against the Quran and my own reason. I have that privilege. While you do not, because you do not accept the hadith at all... which basically limits your resources. You have placed these constraints on yourself, so deal with the consequences.

JK- You ignored my Christian example entirely. If GOD wanted us to follow rituals why put the details between imperfect scriptures? i think u said at tht pt "it's not coz of hadith but wht muslims have been practicng all along" but where did u get this tht muslims were practicng this all along? "from the hadith" so its a cear circular argument.

Quote
Nothing you have said has stood up to my objections on this thread, nor on our MSN chat. If you feel this Ayman can resurrect your position, please feel free to ask him to post his arguments on this thread.

PeAcE


JK- I guess that is for ppl to decide. I can make the same claim for you. Infact youve not proided any other evidence for your claim aept hadith whilst ayman has provided PHYSICAL inscriptins independent of hadith,this being secular, making his pt and his pts make much more sense to. So whos got the more powerful arguments? GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

c0de

Quote from: jonny_k on March 24, 2009, 08:15:42 AM
Peace "c0de",

JK- You ignored my Christian example entirely. If GOD wanted us to follow rituals why put the details between imperfect scriptures? i think u said at tht pt "it's not coz of hadith but wht muslims have been practicng all along" but where did u get this tht muslims were practicng this all along? "from the hadith" so its a cear circular argument.

Your Christian example is no example at all because it doesnt help you. Their view is more valid then yours because it is based in at least some evidence. While all you have is semantics. As for your second argument, you are just repeating things which have already been answered on this thread before. I am not defending the details of any ritual, I am defending the established 5 prayer ritual which has a foundation in the Quran. The details which are present in the secondary scriptures are not important to my argument.

Quote
JK- I guess that is for ppl to decide. I can make the same claim for you. Infact youve not proided any other evidence for your claim aept hadith whilst ayman has provided PHYSICAL inscriptins independent of hadith,this being secular, making his pt and his pts make much more sense to. So whos got the more powerful arguments? GOD Bless!

No you cant make the same claim to me. And I also provided a Greek Historical document which pre-dates the Quran which destroys the idea that Mecca was not a spiritual center before our Prophet. You have totally failed to respond to that as of yet.


PeAcE
--Mohsin E.

jonny_k

Peace "c0de",

Quote from: c0de on March 24, 2009, 08:29:54 AM
Your Christian example is no example at all because it doesnt help you. Their view is more valid then yours because it is based in at least some evidence. While all you have is semantics. As for your second argument, you are just repeating things which have already been answered on this thread before. I am not defending the details of any ritual, I am defending the established 5 prayer ritual which has a foundation in the Quran. The details which are present in the secondary scriptures are not important to my argument.

JK- Christians are in the same boat as you are. IM NOT MAKING A POSITIVE CLAIM. I dont accept GOD commands rituals unless someone brings evidence. That is the point your not getting. Secondly there IS actually evidence to the contrary from inscriptions as bro ayman has provided and he will go into more detail with you. BUT even if those were not present YET YOU, NOT WE, would require a positive evidence for GOD commanding rituals.

Quote
No you cant make the same claim to me. And I also provided a Greek Historical document which pre-dates the Quran which destroys the idea that Mecca was not a spiritual center before our Prophet. You have totally failed to respond to that as of yet.

PeAcE


JK- Does it actually mention the name "mecca"? Just a description of an area and arguing that that is what the Quran implies by mecca doesnt make any sense whatsoever moreso when the root menaings of that word have nothing to do with a proper noun. Again you can debte this further with bro ayman. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

jonny_k

Peace "c0de",
I noticed you saying:

Quote
The equivalent of the word "salat" in English is worship, and there is
no plural of this word in Arabic,

JK- This is WRONG. The plural of the word "salat" is "salaWAT" and it is there in the Quran itself:
Y.Ali 2:238 Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers(AS-SALAWAAT), especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before God in a devout (frame of mind).
GOD Bless!

[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

c0de

@ Jonny K

I have since that post come to know of the plural is Salwaat, thank you anyway though.

QuoteJK- Christians are in the same boat as you are. IM NOT MAKING A POSITIVE CLAIM. I dont accept GOD commands rituals unless someone brings evidence. That is the point your not getting. Secondly there IS actually evidence to the contrary from inscriptions as bro ayman has provided and he will go into more detail with you. BUT even if those were not present YET YOU, NOT WE, would require a positive evidence for GOD commanding rituals.

We have evidence, you just refuse to accept it because it contradicts your view. I can't help such issues.

QuoteDoes it actually mention the name "mecca"? Just a description of an area and arguing that that is what the Quran implies by mecca doesnt make any sense whatsoever moreso when the root menaings of that word have nothing to do with a proper noun. Again you can debte this further with bro ayman. GOD Bless!

If it talks like a duck, walks like a duck... chances are its a duck. All the descriptions that are present in the Greek Historical record point to Mecca, and only Mecca fits the description used in the account.


PeAcE
--Mohsin E.