The Prayer Issue Revived

[c0de]

Hey BelH,

Bro all I can say is that verse seems to me to be very clear.
I will need more well established arguments and historical evidence
to question the 5 established prayers myself. But, to each his own bro. 

[drfazl]

Br belH
    c0de
    Truthseeker

Is it not that we understand first what salat is and defining it so important that it is convenient for us to understand the rest about the salat individually without the necessity for even a discussion?

Peace.

[belH]

Hey BelH,

Bro all I can say is that verse seems to me to be very clear.
I will need more well established arguments and historical evidence
to question the 5 established prayers myself. But, to each his own bro. 

Peace:
May God lead us the the Truth.

Br belH
    c0de
    Truthseeker

Is it not that we understand first what salat is and defining it so important that it is convenient for us to understand the rest about the salat individually without the necessity for even a discussion?

Peace.

Peace:
You are right; but when someone one comes to doubt your practice of Deen, then you need to discuss in order to find if your way is right or his.

[drfazl]

belH,

Peace:
May God lead us the the Truth.

Peace:
You are right; but when someone one comes to doubt your practice of Deen, then you need to discuss in order to find if your way is right or his.

We all practice Deen for our own good and for Allah's sake; and if such is not the same with the one who discusses? Allah says: They think that they lay you under an obligation by becoming Muslims. Say: Lay me not under obligation by your Deen : rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith if you are truthful.

Peace.
.

[drfazl]

c0de.

Hey BelH,

Bro all I can say is that verse seems to me to be very clear.
I will need more well established arguments and historical evidence
to question the 5 established prayers myself. But, to each his own bro. 

All evidences are with Him alone; only arguments are with us! Allah warns us of is this: Behold! you are they who argued about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you argue about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.

Peace.

.

[c0de]

c0de.


All evidences are with Him alone; only arguments are with us! Allah warns us of is this: Behold! you are they who argued about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you argue about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.

Peace.

.

Very tru

[Samia]

p.s. Dude you have a wicked Avatar pic!

I said so, too 

[Bigmo]

Bro I do not have any authority to tell you that you are wrong.
I can not even tell you that I am right. This is not about right or wrong,
as we are both trying to find out what Allah wants us to do.

For me, this verse clearly talks about prayer, as this is the only logical
reason for those two specific times being mentioned. God is saying that
Praise is due to Him at those two specific times. As for for why there are
two separate verse which cover all the 5 times, Allah knows best. Maybe
in the beginning there were 2 prayers, and then 3 more were added?

I do not rely on the stories of the hadith, so I do not really give the whole
Miraj stories much credibility. The whole 50 prayers idea seems a little wierd to me.
So it is possible that 5 prayers were revealed piece-meal to the Muslims. And
this would explain why two separate verses cover those 5 times.

But what I do not want to do is to question this practice solely based on a suspicion
and reject it and stop praying. Because bro, I hate the majority's understanding in
most cases as well, but before I reject the majority's opinion, I need to have a reason
to reject it. And so far, there is no other reason for me to reject this practice other
then laziness and being glad that I don't have to pray 5 times in the day. Because
there is no evidence to suggest to me why this practice is dubious.

This is why I have continually asked for any REAL evidence to suggest that there
was ever a time that 5 was not the established number of prayers in the day.
As that would really make me question the whole idea myself too.


p.s. Dude you have a wicked Avatar pic!


PeAcE

And do you want us also to prove that there are 7 tawwaf around the ka'ba but not 4, or there must be seven stones thrown at the devil but not 6? Or do you want us also to prove that we must wash our hands 3 times in wudu and not 11?

I see this argument this way:

1. Where does it say 5 times in the Koran? Why fajr should be two rika'at and not 3? Where does it say that in the koran?

1. What evidence you have that its not 5? How can you prove to me that what Sunni/Shias practice is wrong?

2. You do not have the evidence from the Koran therefore you are against the Koran and I am going to take all the verses in the Koran about the disbelievers or the hypocrites and apply them to you since they also refused to accept the Koran and its teachings.

2. You have not provided any evidence from the Koran that what the majorities of Muslims do is wrong and innaccurate therefore I am going to assume that you have a hidden agenda and that you just want to eleminate some of these obligations because you don't want to practice them.

Of course c0de is right that he can not provide any evidence from the Koran that what Muslims follow is wrong or innacurrate but at the same time there are some here who believe in only 2 prayers but believe that Zakat is 1/3 of a person's wealth or any extra money he does not need. They will then accuse c0de of following muslim tradition because he would rather pay 2.5% of his wealth because he is stingy like the rest of the Muslims.

Its not about intentions, its about some people require specific pin point evidence from the Koran. Others require a pin point Koranic reason to question tradition. There is nobody here who is superior to anybody.

[c0de]

@ Samia

well its official then, great minds think alike 


@ Bigmo

bro, it is a fact is that the other side has provided ZERO evidence that the practice
of the Early Muslims was ever different regarding the times of prayer.  Everything so far has
been based on circumstantial evidence (and this also is a fact). If you consider these
suspicions to be enough for you to reject the 5 prayer times,  then that is (totally) your business.
But as far as I am concerned, there has not been any real evidence provided for this
practice to be rejected.

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace C0de,

it is a fact is that the other side has provided ZERO evidence that the practice
of the Early Muslims was ever different regarding the times of prayer.  Everything so far has
been based on circumstantial evidence (and this also is a fact). If you consider these
suspicions to be enough for you to reject the 5 prayer times,  then that is (totally) your business.
But as far as I am concerned, there has not been any real evidence provided for this
practice to be rejected.

I'm not understanding this perspective, brother. You're saying that the Qur'aan does NOT instruct us to observe salaat 5 times per day? But you're insisting that Muhammad and his followers still observed 5 prayers? In other words, they disobeyed G-d's command to observe salaat at the prescribed times?! Is this advisable? What is more important to you - following the alleged example of Muhammad, or following the commands of G-d Himself? This seems like a circular argument, and the outcome of it really doesn't matter at all. Just because the scriptures say that Moses killed an Egyptian man doesn't mean all the believers should take to the practice of randomly killing Egyptians...

Now, historically, there are plenty of citations regarding the ancient Arab muslims praying THREE times per day, and many of them later incorporated the Reform Sabian concept of praying 5 times, which was long after Muhammad had died. To justify these doctrines, they made some outrageous claims, one of which being that G-d commanded Muhammad to observe salaat 50 times per day, but somehow Muhammad argued his way down to 5...  Either way, there's no historical evidence to support the idea of the people originally praying 5 times per day, just like there's no historical evidence to support the idea of the people originally facing Mekka during their salaat. These are concepts later added into the alleged sayings and actions of Muhammad, which weren't written until about 300 years after his death!

People fail to realize that the salaat was established with Abraham and the patriarchs. Their descendants were the Jews, who followed the Torah. And nowhere are the Jews or the Hebrews ever told to pray 5 times per day; all of them observed THREE daily prayers and worship observances (which was originally based on giving offerings/sacrifices three times per day. Since Muhammad followed the religion of Abraham (see 16:123), he most likely observed 3 daily prayers, not 5.

Peace,

Ahmad