The Prayer Issue Revived

[belH]

I said so, too 

Would you like this one to be my avatar





or this one stuffed with rice

[theNabster]

I now fully accept the argument because I scrutinized the Quran to look for anything to do with Salat.
Salat means either of commitment or ritual prayer depending on the context, but Salat as commitment
is more prevalent throughout.
The three Salats are:
Fajr Salat (before dawn)
Salat Wusta (Noon prayer - as it is right in the middle between the two)
and
Salat al Isha (Evening prayer from just after sunset to night time).
There is in my opinion an anti pagan logic for this.
The times cannot encourage someone to pray towards the sun, as for Fajr and Isha the sun is hidden,
and for Salat Wusta, at its zenith so impossible to bow to it (well at least in the middle east), even if that might be an unimportant factor, but if we look at these little pagan things like the moon and star on minarets (cult of moon god), the Kaaba (Allat Manat and Uzzat Dark Son God), the word Amen (egyptian God Amoun Ra), one wonders why the Muslims are incurring such wrath from their Creator.
God bless...
Noble

[c0de]

@ Ahmed

Bro that is not what I am saying. I am saying that all the 5 times of prayer
are mentioned in the Quran. The verses have all been quoted in this thread.
And so far no evidence has been provided that the number of salat prayers
was ever different then 5.

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace c0de,

And so far no evidence has been provided that the number of salat prayers
was ever different then 5.

Yes, there is clear proof of this. In fact, the strongest evidence is the consideration of the previous scriptures in previous generations... Since submission is called the "millat Ibraheem" (religion of Abraham), our prayers are performed in the same manner as his were. And coincidentally, the Jews are also called 'followers of Abraham'. In fact, ALL the Abrahamic systems promote prayer at three designated time periods; sectarian Muslims are the ONLY ONES who practice five, and this is solely based on the hadith and sunna texts. Both the Torah and the Injeel instruct us to uphold three.

In reality, there are three distinct periods specifically mentioned for salaat in the Qur'aan, BY NAME. They are (1) salaat al-faajr, (2) salaat al-esha, and (3) salaat al-wusta. And "coincidentally", these are the exact same prayers outlined in the Torah and Injeel... So, you think G-d added 2 more prayers but just forgot to mention/name them? G-d said that the Qur'aan is fully detailed, and He even says that nothing has been left out of it (see 6:38, 114). So, what are the names of the other 2 prayers, and where are they specifically mentioned in the Qur'aan?

Peace,

Ahmad

[Bigmo]

Peace c0de,

Yes, there is clear proof of this. In fact, the strongest evidence is the consideration of the previous scriptures in previous generations... Since submission is called the "millat Ibraheem" (religion of Abraham), our prayers are performed in the same manner as his were. And coincidentally, the Jews are also called 'followers of Abraham'. In fact, ALL the Abrahamic systems promote prayer at three designated time periods; sectarian Muslims are the ONLY ONES who practice five, and this is solely based on the hadith and sunna texts. Both the Torah and the Injeel instruct us to uphold three.

In reality, there are three distinct periods specifically mentioned for salaat in the Qur'aan, BY NAME. They are (1) salaat al-faajr, (2) salaat al-esha, and (3) salaat al-wusta. And "coincidentally", these are the exact same prayers outlined in the Torah and Injeel... So, you think G-d added 2 more prayers but just forgot to mention/name them? G-d said that the Qur'aan is fully detailed, and He even says that nothing has been left out of it (see 6:38, 114). So, what are the names of the other 2 prayers, and where are they specifically mentioned in the Qur'aan?

Peace,

Ahmad

You raised a good point. It does I admit bolster the 3 salaat time. But Judaic traditions do have an extra two to make it 5 but Torah does indicate 3 although the prophets there prayed and prostrated in all ocassions and at all times. But three are the ones mentioned specifically time wise and so does the Koran although two are crystal clear.

[c0de]

@ Ahmed


Bro you don't seriously expect to base your entire argument on
the practices of the Jews and get away with it do ya? You do realize
that the 5 established prayers are like the ONLY THING that all the
sects in Islam actually agree on rite??! lol. And this is the one thing
that you all are questioning...  

So again, this only qualifies as more circumstantial evidence,
as no one has provided any proof that the early Muslims
ever prayed 3 prayers (or 2) instead of 5.


PeAcE

[truthseeker11]

Peace code,

Wrong, I want proof that salat was something other then 5 times a day. (more or less)
So in this way, it is not a negative assertion.  Just provide proof that it was 3, or 7
or whatever. Basically, just show me some actual proof already! (lol)

The qur'aan is not proof? It clearly mentions only 2-3 times for salat. This has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum in the past. You can look for the appropriate threads.

Dude I am not the one who is twisting the words of God. When God says
"To Him be Praise in the after noon" Obviously, God is telling us to
give Him praise in the afternoon. How much clearer can it get?

The word used is "hamd" meaning praise and not "salaat". You are the one who earlier said this refers to salaat, thus twisting God's word. Why can't we praise God at certain times? Just because a time is mentioned does not make "hamd"/praise same as salaat. Hamd/praise can be done outside salaat too. God does not play word games. Where He means salaat He uses the word "salaat".

Well, maybe they did. I am open to that possibility. But you have to prove to me that
they did. And the way you do it, is to provide evidence that the practice was once different
then it is today.

The qur'aan is the evidence that salaat is only 2-3 times per day. So definitely they fabricated the other times.

Also, the TIMES for prayer and the basic rituals (facing mecca etc.) do all have a foundation
in the Quran. All the verses that are provided here cover the timings of the prayers.
Also, the rituals (bowing, prostration, recital of surah Fatiah, "seven oft repeated verses"
all have a foundation in the Quran).

You are again twisting God's words. Nowhere are we asked to face mecca in the qur'aan and nowhere is the bowing position. You know that it is a huge sin to twist God's words and to ascribe to Him what He never said right?

Yes, the qur'aan is fully detailed and it does provide the timings of only 2-3 salaat per day. No there is no bowing position according to the qur'aan and no, we are not asked to face "mecca" in the qur'aan.

Dude they say that you can combine Zuhr and Asr and pray them together.
They do not say that Zuhr and Asr are one prayer. You are basically
using circumstantial evidence to make your case, and it won't hold.

Your logic is one of the most absurd ones I have come across. How can it be two different salaats when combined into one? By the way "salaat" does not mean "prayer". There is another word used in the qur'aan for "prayer" which is "du3aa". You are again twisting God's words by saying "prayer" instead of "salaat". If you attend five one hour classes in school and they are combined to three one hour classes, are you still attending five one hour classes or are you now attending three one hour classes?

You can't seriously base your entire argument on the absence of
details in the Quran for these actions as proof that these prayers
never existed.

You don't seem to have faith/trust in the qur'aan. When the qur'aan says it is fully detailed and mentions only 2-3 times for salaat, that is proof that the other times are fabricated because THE QUR'AAN IS FULLY DETAILED as far as our guidance is concerned.

The Quran tells you to worship at those times, and you can worship
however you wish, as long as it follows some basic requirements.
Just like the Quran tells you to pay zakat, but doesnt tell you how much.
Now its up to you to take care of the specifics, as long as you pay zakat rite?
The same is the case with prayer. You just have to do it, its part of the
submitting your whole self to God, and it makes perfect sense.

Establishing salaat does not mean worshipping God .... again you are twisting God's words. All the guidelines of salaat are mentioned in the qur'aan and I agree we have to stay within those guidelines. That is why there are no five obligatory salaats because that is outside the guidelines.

Now your just being too picky dude:

017.107
YUSUFALI: ...when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,
PICKTHAL: ...when it is read unto them, fall down prostrate on their faces, adoring,
SHAKIR: ... those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces, making obeisance when it is recited to them.

you need to ease up with the specifics.
How would you naturally fall down on your face
other then the standard forehead prostrating position?
You cant actually fall down on your face, as that
you break your nose!! And touching your chin...     
that is just weird.

I am not being picky but YOU ARE TWISTING GOD'S WORDS. These translators deliberately mistranslate and twist God's words in this sign/ayat to justify their preconceived notions based on unverifiable hearsay, and by quoting them and using those mistranslations as part of your argument, you become guilty of the same crime. This is carelessness to the highest degree. How can you understand God's words if you don't do your homework and verify the correct meaning yourself first before believing in other's mistranslations? I think this is your basic flaw because of which you are unable to comprehend God's message. You are twisting God's words because of your carelessness.

ATHQAAN DOES NOT MEAN FACES BUT MEANS CHINS. Faces is "wajooh" (plural) and "wajh" (singular) as used in the qur'aan.

The Quran itself states that that it should be recited in a voice that is not too loud
and not to remain silent while reciting it either. Hence, the quiet whisper.

Here again you are twisting God's words because of your carelessness. Had you bothered to verify what 17:110 is saying, you would have found out that the word used is "takhaafat", which means speaking in a low or soft voice according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, which is the same as a "quiet whisper". God is asking us exactly NOT to do that "quiet whispering". He clearly says "do not be loud nor speak in a low/soft voice but a way in between those", which can only mean a moderate tone.

I am sorry, but I cannot continue discussion with those who are extremely careless and keep twisting God's words because there is no evidence/proof that will convince them and no one except God can guide them unless The God wishes.

3:78 And from amongst them is a group that twist their tongues with the Scripture so that you may think it is from the Scripture, while it is not from the Scripture, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.

[truthseeker11]

Peace Nabster,

I now fully accept the argument because I scrutinized the Quran to look for anything to do with Salat.
Salat means either of commitment or ritual prayer depending on the context, but Salat as commitment
is more prevalent throughout.
The three Salats are:
Fajr Salat (before dawn)
Salat Wusta (Noon prayer - as it is right in the middle between the two)
and
Salat al Isha (Evening prayer from just after sunset to night time).
There is in my opinion an anti pagan logic for this.
The times cannot encourage someone to pray towards the sun, as for Fajr and Isha the sun is hidden,
and for Salat Wusta, at its zenith so impossible to bow to it (well at least in the middle east), even if that might be an unimportant factor, but if we look at these little pagan things like the moon and star on minarets (cult of moon god), the Kaaba (Allat Manat and Uzzat Dark Son God), the word Amen (egyptian God Amoun Ra), one wonders why the Muslims are incurring such wrath from their Creator.
God bless...
Noble

There are some logical problems with your understanding.

1. If salaat al-wusta means "middle salaat" then did God forget to tell us which one is the middle? If your inference is correct then the qur'aan is not fully detailed and God left something out of it and forgot.

2. Why is noon the middle time? Middle of the night can also be the middle time.

3. 2:238 says "guard/protect our salawaat and salaat al-wusta". Salawaat already includes ALL the salaats. Mentioning a "middle salaat" after that will be totally redundant and illogical.

If a teacher says to the student: "bring your books and the math book" would it not be redundant to say "math book", because it is already included in "your books"? If your inference is correct then God is a fool because He does not know such redundancies and does not know any logic.

4. The words derived from WST in the qur'aan mean "best/balanced" in all other occurrences. The only logical meaning of 2:238 would be to establish all our salaats in the best/balanced manner. First God tells us to guard/protect our salaats, meaning that we should strive to establish all salaats according to God's commands and guidelines, and then by saying salaat al-wusta God is telling us to establish salaat in the best/balanced manner within those guidelines.

EVERY SALAAT IS SALAAT AL-WUSTA if established sincerely according to God's commands.

You might say that "salawaat" means three or more salaats, but where in 2:238 or its context does it say that it refers to the salaats in one day? Salawaat here refers to ALL the salaats in our lifetime.

Another grammatical point is that both fajr and isha salaats have the following wording in the qur'aan:

"AL-salaat al-fajr" meaning THE dawn salaat (specific salaat)
"AL-salaat al-3isha" meaning THE dusk salaat (specific salaat)

The wording of wusta salaat is as follows:

"Salaat al-wusta" meaning best/balanced salaat (NO AL BEFORE IT).

This is a GENERAL phrase and does not refer to a specific salaat or a specific time.

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace c0de,

Bro you don't seriously expect to base your entire argument on
the practices of the Jews and get away with it do ya? You do realize
that the 5 established prayers are like the ONLY THING that all the
sects in Islam actually agree on rite??! lol. And this is the one thing
that you all are questioning...  

This is WRONG. In fact, it's necessary to note that believers of "Shia" Islaam actually believe in observing salaat THREE times per day as well, and guess what these three times are? Yep, that's right, brother: (1) morning, (2) afternoon, and (3) night. Some smaller groups of them believe in 5 daily salaat observances, but they only perform them during these three periods, therefore consolidating two prayers into one... The only groups that firmly believe in the 5 daily salaat observances are those who follow the guidance of the hadith and sunna writings ordaining them. Nothing else even mentions 5 prayers at all, and the Qur'aan clearly speaks of three distinct times...

So again, this only qualifies as more circumstantial evidence,
as no one has provided any proof that the early Muslims
ever prayed 3 prayers (or 2) instead of 5.

Where is the proof that the early Muslims prayed 5 times per day? The only thing that supports this doctrine is the sunna, something that has admittedly been SEVERELY CORRUPTED, FORGED, AND (in many cases) COMPLETELY FABRICATED, especially when it came to adopting pagan rituals... The 5 daily prayers were the practice of the Zoroastrians and certain Sabian sects, not the Muslims. That's why none of the scriptures mention 5 daily prayers for any of the Abrahamic systems; instead, they all promote THREE... So, where is your proof that the ancient submitters believed in 5 daily prayers? And were these three salaat observances ordained by G-d, or were they pagan traditions inherited from their forefathers?

Peace,

Ahmad

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace Truthseeker,

3. 2:238 says "guard/protect our salawaat and salaat al-wusta". Salawaat already includes ALL the salaats. Mentioning a "middle salaat" after that will be totally redundant and illogical.

If a teacher says to the student: "bring your books and the math book" would it not be redundant to say "math book", because it is already included in "your books"? If your inference is correct then God is a fool because He does not know such redundancies and does not know any logic.

This is an illogical argument. The Qur'aan says to guard the "salawaat wa'al-salaatu al-wusta"... There's the word "waw"/and between them, but it occurs after the plural form. Therefore, instead of mentioning a separate one, it speaks of especially observing one, namely the middle... Also, the Arabic word "salawaat" specifically refers to the plurality of salaat, meaning THREE OR MORE. So, this can't be referring to only 2 prayers; it has to be at least speaking of three. The word used to describe two salaat observances would be "salatayn", a word that doesn't occur in the Qur'aan at all... Now, some people have made the argument that the word "salawaat" is referring to all the prayers during one's lifetime, but again, in context, this is completely illogical. If it was referring to all the prayers during one's lifetime, then the especialized one ("al-salaatu al-wusta") must be referring to ONE SPECIFIC SALAAT during one's lifetime, meaning either (1) in the middle of one's life or (2) the one best/balanced salaat during one's life. Since we don't know how long our life will be, this is not a sensible concept. Therefore, "salawaat" must be referring to DAILY PRAYERS, and this means there must be at least three per day. This further illustrates that the word "wusta" in this sense is most likely meaning "middle", not balanced, best, or anything else...

Another grammatical point is that both fajr and isha salaats have the following wording in the qur'aan:

"AL-salaat al-fajr" meaning THE dawn salaat (specific salaat)
"AL-salaat al-3isha" meaning THE dusk salaat (specific salaat)

The wording of wusta salaat is as follows:

"Salaat al-wusta" meaning best/balanced salaat (NO AL BEFORE IT).

This is a GENERAL phrase and does not refer to a specific salaat or a specific time.

Ummm... Are you sure about this one, brother?

Haafithu a'alaa al-salawaat wa' al-salaat al-wusta wa qumoo lilaahi qaaniteen...

There is DEFINATELY the word "al"/the present behind "salaat al-wusta", and this is specifically referring to a distinct salaat observance. Since the word "salawaat" refers to three or more distinct times, in a plural sense, the word "wusta" would have to be referring to a time amongst these other ones... So, if there are three salaat per day ("hypothetically"), which one would be the "best"? Which one is most "balanced"? There's no way we can make this distinction. Therefore, it must mean "middle", and in right between the other two...

Peace,

Ahmad