Author Topic: The Prayer Issue Revived  (Read 53937 times)

c0de

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #290 on: May 06, 2009, 02:27:14 AM »
Peace "c0de",


JK- Whether someone accepts the proof or not is still upto them. Dawkins might eventually agree with me about an ever increased Intelligence "evolved" in the quantu realm but then hed deny that That Intelligence wants anything to do with us or communicate with us which is included in the definition of GOD according to him. Then wed be getting to the Quran and the staistical signicance of its numerical structure, scientific oreknowledge etc and lastly it will boil down to what we both consider more significant or less. BUT that is fine with me. At least everyone wouldve given his rational views out. With you the case is different. You insist on supernaturalism and rituals for which theres no reason at all.

LOL! WRONG! That is what you hope would happen, but since I have much more experience dealing with atheists like Dawkins, I KNOW that this is just your fantasy. As soon as you try to convince him of the "rationality" of the "numerical structures" of the Quran he will utterly HUMILIATE YOU.

I have seen the way you argue, and I have seen your level of intellect. I figured you out the first day we chatted on MSN... the way you kept bringing up point after point, which kept getting shot down, and then you would just ignore it and bring another. In front of someone like Dawkins, your "rationality" would utterly fall apart because unlike me, he will have no mercy on you.

I told you that you have no idea of how to use concepts like "reason" and "rationality" in a philosophical setting. You ignored my advise to go and talk to a professor about these things and take a course in Philosophy and logic. My only suggestion now to you is to go and have a debate with someone as cunning as Dawkins or better yet, an atheist philosopher. Maybe then you will understand the reason why Philo successfully humiliated Cleanthes, but could no damage to the faith and argument of Demea.


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JK- You assertions are similar as to claim GOD can create a rock which He Himself cannot lift? Ofcourse that is not possible because the very statement is illogical. You have already setuip a false god and claimed attributes for Him which are not mentioned in the Quran and they defy logic and reason. The laws of mathematics are there by definition. Theyr not created only utuilized or discovered. GOD knows them all yes but saying that He has created those makes as much sense as saying that GOD could create a rock that He Himself cannot lift. 

Your argument is fallacious on the face of it. Because it is begging the question: if these laws of mathematics existed before God and are responsible for creating God, then the laws of mathematics are (by definition) the designer of God, and so God is then subjected to their limitations. In such a case how could God be all-powerful? (answer is: HE can not, so your whole argument is invalid!) You have sacrificed the Omnipotence of God, to rationalize His existence! Just to support your argument!!! (shame on you, dude). So therefore, YOU are then the one setting up false attributes, not I. As I am taking God's word on faith, that He is "uncreated" (i.e. was not born out of a natural proccess). Where as you are the one who is saying that God came about through a natural proccess which is understandable through reason.


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As for the Malak alien it is just a hypothesis. Malaaikah can also mean universal forces and used as a symbolic reference to them. It need not be literal at all. Take a look at Dr. Shabbirs Quran translation for example.


LOL yea, exactly. So you can not use this to counter that argument then, can you? Your hypothesis, is just a hypothesis!


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ALSO the definition of Imaan in the Quran is NOT CIRCULAR. Show me the verses here. If that were so then why should i beleive the Quran and not some other book? Dont you see that your spewing nonsense here? GOD Bless!

You're accusing me of "spawning nonsense" ?? !! (LOL!) That is adorable! You and your "Ayman"... are just... precious.

I have to say, I thoroughly enjoy dropping by once a month to check in on this thread... you are quite the comical relief;)

Have fun with you your "alien hypothesis argument"... (have your tin hat and laser guns ready ok?)




PeAcE

--Mohsin E.

jonny_k

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #291 on: May 16, 2009, 07:03:36 AM »
Peace "c0de",
Sorry for the late reply. Im currently not posting regularly.

LOL! WRONG! That is what you hope would happen, but since I have much more experience dealing with atheists like Dawkins, I KNOW that this is just your fantasy. As soon as you try to convince him of the "rationality" of the "numerical structures" of the Quran he will utterly HUMILIATE YOU.

JK- It depends on how they humilate me. If anyone humilaiates me personally Ill strike back hard too. If they dumilaiate me intellectually then i know of no such humiliation. I will continue to give my arguments and then every individual has to decide for him/herself what is more reasonable.

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I have seen the way you argue, and I have seen your level of intellect. I figured you out the first day we chatted on MSN... the way you kept bringing up point after point, which kept getting shot down, and then you would just ignore it and bring another. In front of someone like Dawkins, your "rationality" would utterly fall apart because unlike me, he will have no mercy on you.

JK- You shldnt have "mercy" on me either. Ill tackle each point as much as i can and like i said many times before the audience will decide who has the better arguments in the end anyways.

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I told you that you have no idea of how to use concepts like "reason" and "rationality" in a philosophical setting. You ignored my advise to go and talk to a professor about these things and take a course in Philosophy and logic. My only suggestion now to you is to go and have a debate with someone as cunning as Dawkins or better yet, an atheist philosopher. Maybe then you will understand the reason why Philo successfully humiliated Cleanthes, but could no damage to the faith and argument of Demea.

JK- What your doing is again "appeal to aiuthority". Why dont you bring up the relvant points here and we will discuss them? I told you before im convinced of my points like im convinced that i exist. Now you or anyone else could change that. Im open to everything. Also let other people on the forum witness those points of discussion.

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Your argument is fallacious on the face of it. Because it is begging the question: if these laws of mathematics existed before God and are responsible for creating God, then the laws of mathematics are (by definition) the designer of God, and so God is then subjected to their limitations. In such a case how could God be all-powerful? (answer is: HE can not, so your whole argument is invalid!)

JK- Your point makes as much sense as claiming GOD can create a rock which he Himself cannot lift. Can He do that in your understanding? If not then Hes not all powerful by your definition. If you want to get that fine on definitions then may i ask you WHERE IN THE QURAN does GOD say that He is all powerful? The attribute coming close to this is "'ala kulli shyin qadeer" which means "He has authority over all things".  Now unless you wanna with a great twist define maths as being a thing your argument makes no sense. Mathematics is a concept of understanding how things logically operate. Sure we can say as long as theres no observer theres no sense of mathematics so asa GOD came into being infinite "time" ago so did maths with Him being the first observer.

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You have sacrificed the Omnipotence of God, to rationalize His existence! Just to support your argument!!! (shame on you, dude). So therefore, YOU are then the one setting up false attributes, not I. As I am taking God's word on faith, that He is "uncreated" (i.e. was not born out of a natural proccess). Where as you are the one who is saying that God came about through a natural proccess which is understandable through reason.

JK- GOD is indeed uncreated because there was no intelligence "before" to create. The very term "create" applies only to an "intelliegnce" or a central processing unit from which things issue forth. Random fluctuations dont count as such.
 
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LOL yea, exactly. So you can not use this to counter that argument then, can you? Your hypothesis, is just a hypothesis!

JK- It's a hypotheis yes but it is a hypothesis based on NATURAL phenomena. Thats the point. Doing supernaturealism is what causes problems.

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You're accusing me of "spawning nonsense" ?? !! (LOL!) That is adorable! You and your "Ayman"... are just... precious.

I have to say, I thoroughly enjoy dropping by once a month to check in on this thread... you are quite the comical relief;)

Have fun with you your "alien hypothesis argument"... (have your tin hat and laser guns ready ok?)


PeAcE



JK- Now your comitting the fallacy of resorting to ridicule. You just keep on comitting fallacy after fallacy without actually brining up the points for discussion. Once again ive given my arguments. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

progressive1993

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #292 on: May 16, 2009, 07:29:17 AM »
Peace C0de:

Per 3-7, believers should follow well-established meaning verses in order to know their obligated duties. Now, I know that Sunset, night, and Dawn prayers are commended in a very well-established verses. But on the other hand, Zuher and Aser time are not mentioned in well-established verses to be as time for prayers.
 
11-114 is a well established verse:
And you shall hold the communion at the two edges of the day, during the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
11:114   وأقم الصلوة طرفي النهار وزلفا من اليل إن الحسنت يذهبن السيءات ذلك ذكرى للذكرين

THEREFORE, 17:78 Calls for prayer AT Sunset, Night, and Dawn (after all Quranic verses will have to match with each others  :!)

Therefore, the Middle prayer that God ordered the believer to guard is the Night Prayer (2-238);
Here is a well established verses that prove That:

73:1    O you who are covered with your garments.
73:2   Stand the night except for a little.
73:3    Half of it, or a little less than that.
73:4   Or a little more, and arrange the Qur?an in its arrangement.
73:5   We will place upon you a saying which is heavy.
73:6   The time of the night is more effective and stronger in reciting (إن ناشئة اليل هي أشد وطءا وأقوم قيلا).

From the above well established verses, The night prayer is the Westa Prayer. Now can you bring me a well established verse that says Aser prayer is the prayer that is more stronger and effective than the other prayers including the night prayer?


Moreover, please note the following verse:

Qur?aan 24:58
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty.  This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer.  These are three private times for you.  At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another.  Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you.  Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Now, please note the red colored words and the blue ones. If there is a prayer during noon, why God did not mention (in blue word section) as He did when speaking about the Dawn and night (red colored section)?

May God lead us to the truth.
Peace

Wrong. "Salat al-Fajr" and "Salat al-Isha" are both mentioned by name. Therefore the middle prayer cannot be the night prayer, as "Salat al-Isha" is already mentioned.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

progressive1993

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #293 on: May 16, 2009, 07:32:20 AM »
--deleted--
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

c0de

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #294 on: May 18, 2009, 11:41:17 AM »

JK- It depends on how they humilate me. If anyone humilaiates me personally Ill strike back hard too. If they dumilaiate me intellectually then i know of no such humiliation. I will continue to give my arguments and then every individual has to decide for him/herself what is more reasonable.

JK- You shldnt have "mercy" on me either. Ill tackle each point as much as i can and like i said many times before the audience will decide who has the better arguments in the end anyways.

Unlike you, I could care less about the "audience"


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JK- What your doing is again "appeal to aiuthority". Why dont you bring up the relvant points here and we will discuss them? I told you before im convinced of my points like im convinced that i exist. Now you or anyone else could change that. Im open to everything. Also let other people on the forum witness those points of discussion.

  ::)

rriite... I've seen how "open" you are. Most of the stuff I have said you haven't even understood. Instead you just keep repeating things over and over again like a machine and think the "audience" is will think you actually have a point.


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JK- Your point makes as much sense as claiming GOD can create a rock which he Himself cannot lift. Can He do that in your understanding?

No actually, that is your point not mine. Clearly you didnt understand my previous response to you.


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If not then Hes not all powerful by your definition.


God can do anything, even create another God if He so chooses.

Verses 6:17-18 Declare God's Omnipotence and Omniscience

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If you want to get that fine on definitions then may i ask you WHERE IN THE QURAN does GOD say that He is all powerful?


In many places, actually. And now we are really getting to see your real views on God, and your limited theology. For you, God is not trancendent. For you, God is not all-powerful. Like I said before, you are the one who is limiting God's attributes, not I.

Every time God states that He is capable of all things, it is a declaration of His omnipotence.

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Now unless you wanna with a great twist define maths as being a thing your argument makes no sense.


LOL you just don't get it do you? Maths IS a created THING! Every Law of this CREATED universe is CREATED along with it.

Even modern Science itself has discovered that the laws of mathematics do NOT always apply uniformly throughout existence. Try and explain the paradox of Shroedinger's Cat with 1+1=2 ... are there two different cats in the chamber? Is there one cat? Is that one cat both alive and dead at the same time?

You base your whole argument on rationality, without even knowing how limited rationality is.

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Mathematics is a concept of understanding how things logically operate. Sure we can say as long as theres no observer theres no sense of mathematics so asa GOD came into being infinite "time" ago so did maths with Him being the first observer.

You don't even understand your own argument! God didn't come into being "an infinite time ago." Your argument is supposed to be that God came into being through infinite time! That is what I used to believe (and you borrowed that argument from my debate with that atheist, without even fully understanding it!). According to this argument, it was infinite TIME which allowed for God to come about. But that argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that "time" existed before God. And the laws of mathematics are independent and objectively defined with an independent existence.

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It's a hypotheis yes but it is a hypothesis based on NATURAL phenomena. Thats the point. Doing supernaturealism is what causes problems.

No, rationalizing supernaturalism is what causes problems. That is what you are doing, without even realizing it. You have ZERO evidence that can be scientifically demonstrated for the existence of GOD. Yet you think you can rationalize the supernatural. And the more you try, the more you sacrifice the attributes of God all to support your weak arguments.


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Now your comitting the fallacy of resorting to ridicule. You just keep on comitting fallacy after fallacy without actually brining up the points for discussion. Once again ive given my arguments. GOD Bless!

 ::)

Buddy, I could start an entire thread based on all the fallacies in your so called "arguments". And as for your unfounded accusation that I have presented you fallacious arguments... all I can say is:  :whatever:




PeAcE
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kirikanan

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #295 on: April 24, 2015, 03:07:37 AM »
Salamun alaikum

I just want to ask simple Question, regarding the Ptolemaic corpus on Macoraba or perhaps any other city, have someone try to put those latitude and longitude in Current gps system? I mean the opponent of mecca = Macoraba have you tried to put lat an long givehn by  Ptolemy for Yathib?

becuase i trie duse Google GPS and both error result, did I input the number  wrongly or..?? please help


peace  :peace:
-----wow...there are so many contemporary hadith used and created, to define AlQuran on this forum. AlQur'an alone?? true islam?? think again..-----

shad

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #296 on: April 25, 2015, 01:13:00 AM »
I have recently joined this site and I am still learning. I am confused between the word 'salat' and 'salla'.
The problem is that the word 'salla' is not in the dictionary and the word 'salat' is not in the Quran.

But when we read the Quran in Arabic it is always pronounced as ?Aqimus-Sal-laa- taa-wa-aatuz- Zakaa? ? nobody says ?Aqimus-Salaat-taa-wa-aatuz-Zakat?. This is evident even during the call of prayer, the ?azaan?. All over the world - the person who announces the prayer will shout with ?Hai-ya-?alas-Sal-laa? ? never as ?Hai-ya-?alas-Salaat?. We know this word is pronounced the way it is spelt in the Quran.

So in my opinion, we say 'salat' is contact prayers as defined in the Hadiths.  'Salla' of Quran is something else.

Please feel free to clarify this for me.

kirikanan

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #297 on: April 25, 2015, 07:51:31 AM »
Salam

Bismilah...

iam not going to go into details, just straight to the point

Shalla it's verb if you put ta marbutha in the end then it will be noun. In other words activity  shalla that can be identified or named. Derived from the sad-lam-waw (arabic roots) and all prescribed in Al Quran in many verses.

The variations:

shalat (noun) - (without definitive article) is not ritual and not time prescribed. this highlight  Connections, relations, As in:

  • Rasul (in other words, human) shollu those who gave amwal for purification (9:103)
  • Rasul (human) cannot stand and suplicating give dua to al mukhalaf (9:81-84)

Shalat (noun) (activity shalla that can be named) (withhout definitive article) also highlight the the blessing that Allah gave to Rasull, blessing malaikat to rasul, human bless to rasul. Rasul bless other human as given example before

The problem is, most of people here failed to recognized there are other variation on the word of shalla, the one with definitive article or isim makrifat  ;D

As I explained before we can see connections established 
  • Allah to Rasul
  • Malaikat to rasul
  • Rasul (i/o human) to human

Remember all above is not ritual and can be done at anytime or even continuously, not time constraint!
Whats missing here??? if you can see clearly the one is missing connection human to Allah

That is the one that Allah described as As shalat - with alif lam (definitive article/isim makrifah) is always ritual at the time prescribed. This is where human  made connection with Allah

So one should really put very close attention on isim makrifah, because the devils is in the details!! That what make most people miss when reading AlQur'an, so they are generally treated the word the same is every verse without considering the syntax, context, this is wrong way to read AlQur'an. They fail to read Qur'an without proper nahwu shorof. Ironically, that is the main problem that I have seen in this forum, the debate between ritualist and non ritualis never end

The site like corpus quran also should be revised regarding the occurrences on this word, it should be something like this

  • 12 times as in ṣallā (صَلَّىٰ) verb/fi'il
  •    12 times as in sallat (without alif lam) (صَلَوٰة ) noun/nomina/isim
  • 71 times as in asṣalat (dengan alif lam) (الصَّلَاةَ) noun/nomina/isim
  • 1 time as in muṣallan (مُصَلًّى) noun/nomina/isim
  • 3 times as in muṣallīn (مُصَلِّين) active participle
*numbers may differ slightly, please check again

While as shalat is purely one (human) connection to Allah, always ritual and always time prescribed. I'm not going to debate on how many times, regarding this only Allah is the Hakim (note I use the as definitive article).

So guys, lets end this debate, we are all AlQuran only follower rigth??
its ritual and non ritual, both are prescribed in AlQur'an :)

I hope with this little shadaqah ( in other words shalat) that I gave here , everyone can contemplate, will start over, try to approach every ayat consisting the word with care, and may Allah give you new insight of what really prescribed. So, there's a difference between Qur'an only and (Al) Qur'an only

I wish you all well and may Allah Guide us unto His straight path

Salam

Im sorry if my English is not understandable
-----wow...there are so many contemporary hadith used and created, to define AlQuran on this forum. AlQur'an alone?? true islam?? think again..-----

shad

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #298 on: April 26, 2015, 06:36:15 AM »
Thanks kirikanan

Everyones response help me understand a bit more

Thanks for taking the time to clarify

Shad

GODsubmitter

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #299 on: May 01, 2015, 01:06:35 AM »
Salam

Bismilah...

iam not going to go into details, just straight to the point

Shalla it's verb if you put ta marbutha in the end then it will be noun. In other words activity  shalla that can be identified or named. Derived from the sad-lam-waw (arabic roots) and all prescribed in Al Quran in many verses.

The variations:

shalat (noun) - (without definitive article) is not ritual and not time prescribed. this highlight  Connections, relations, As in:

  • Rasul (in other words, human) shollu those who gave amwal for purification (9:103)
  • Rasul (human) cannot stand and suplicating give dua to al mukhalaf (9:81-84)

Shalat (noun) (activity shalla that can be named) (withhout definitive article) also highlight the the blessing that Allah gave to Rasull, blessing malaikat to rasul, human bless to rasul. Rasul bless other human as given example before

The problem is, most of people here failed to recognized there are other variation on the word of shalla, the one with definitive article or isim makrifat  ;D

As I explained before we can see connections established 
  • Allah to Rasul
  • Malaikat to rasul
  • Rasul (i/o human) to human

Remember all above is not ritual and can be done at anytime or even continuously, not time constraint!
Whats missing here??? if you can see clearly the one is missing connection human to Allah

That is the one that Allah described as As shalat - with alif lam (definitive article/isim makrifah) is always ritual at the time prescribed. This is where human  made connection with Allah

So one should really put very close attention on isim makrifah, because the devils is in the details!! That what make most people miss when reading AlQur'an, so they are generally treated the word the same is every verse without considering the syntax, context, this is wrong way to read AlQur'an. They fail to read Qur'an without proper nahwu shorof. Ironically, that is the main problem that I have seen in this forum, the debate between ritualist and non ritualis never end

The site like corpus quran also should be revised regarding the occurrences on this word, it should be something like this

  • 12 times as in ṣallā (صَلَّىٰ) verb/fi'il
  •    12 times as in sallat (without alif lam) (صَلَوٰة ) noun/nomina/isim
  • 71 times as in asṣalat (dengan alif lam) (الصَّلَاةَ) noun/nomina/isim
  • 1 time as in muṣallan (مُصَلًّى) noun/nomina/isim
  • 3 times as in muṣallīn (مُصَلِّين) active participle
*numbers may differ slightly, please check again

While as shalat is purely one (human) connection to Allah, always ritual and always time prescribed. I'm not going to debate on how many times, regarding this only Allah is the Hakim (note I use the as definitive article).

So guys, lets end this debate, we are all AlQuran only follower rigth??
its ritual and non ritual, both are prescribed in AlQur'an :)

I hope with this little shadaqah ( in other words shalat) that I gave here , everyone can contemplate, will start over, try to approach every ayat consisting the word with care, and may Allah give you new insight of what really prescribed. So, there's a difference between Qur'an only and (Al) Qur'an only

I wish you all well and may Allah Guide us unto His straight path

Salam

Im sorry if my English is not understandable

Thank you very much for this post.
I have a feeling that there is some important truth in what you are saying.
Unfortunately I do not know Arabic at all, so cannot judge the issue, but I like that you go straight to the point.
The conclusion seems that salat is a regular physical contact prayer and that it isn't, as well.
So, since there is an instruction for the physical ablution in the Qur'an, you advocate that there is a regular physical ritual prayer as well, isn't it so?

God bless.
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