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# Allah in Quran

Started by Holiday, December 27, 2008, 06:35:35 AM

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Holiday

Quote from: ayman on December 31, 2008, 02:16:44 PM

This so-called code has already been debunked here:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg179361#msg179361

Everyone can see that verses were moved, deleted and added in every chapter and this stupid code allowed it. In fact, there is an INFINITE number of combinations that would allow verses to be moved, deleted and added in every chapter and this stupid code would allow it.

Peace Ayman,

Not correct; in prior post the column Ch * V is missing (209029 prime) prevents this from occurring...

QuoteJust take out 100 verses from Chapter 9 and add them to any other even chapter such as Chapter 11. So now Chapter 9 has 29 verses while Chapter 11 has 223 new verses and your Checksum is EXACTLY the same.

Here, I will use your table below:

Surah   #Verses       S+V    57 Even   57 Odd   

1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........223..........234..........234...........


9 x 29 = 261 .........................................ch * v
11 x 223 = 2453.....................................ch * v
Totals: ................................................209229 not prime!


Here are the three keys again for reference:

ch   # verses.....57 even...57 odd...ch + v...ch * v
1...........7................8.......................8.........7

9........129.............138...................138......1161
11......123.............134...................134......1353

114.......6..............120...................120.......684
                             
6555...6236..........6236.......6555...12791...209029

19 prime!
12791 prime!
209029 prime!

6555 12791 6236 = 209029 x 31359897
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6236 6555 12791 = 209029 x 29836317

QuoteYou shouldn't waste all the good work you do in exposing Code 19 by hypocritically promoting your own Code 19.

Not my code (includes all verses) rather an observation with 19 being the alluring one as a test, an ayat/sign one of many in Quran.


Peace


Ahmad Bilal

Peace Ayman,

Quote from: ayman on December 31, 2008, 02:16:44 PM
This so-called code has already been debunked here:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg179361#msg179361

Ummm...  :hmm It doesn't look to me like the code is getting "debunked" in that thread at all. If anything, you are consistently trying to discredit the value of the code, and Edip showed you the ignorance and arrogance of your statements. You're the same person promoting the idea of the numerical patterns in the Qur'an occurring by "coincidence", an argument that is easily refuted by studying the scriptures... The Qur'an (i.e. "great reading") is a great book, and I encourage everyone to read it. However, the code 19 concept is viewed as a literal sign of God, and there's nothing wrong with being aware of God's signs while you study the message... Since the Qur'an claims to be perfected and structured, containing no inconsistencies, then it should also be perfectly and consistently symmetrical; and if this is the case, then why do you reject the idea of it being mathematically configured?

Peace,

Ahmad
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Bahman

Quote from: Holiday on December 31, 2008, 02:35:49 AM
You should have spent 10 min from the past 10 years to verify this; see other threads too.
Fact is God has caused some of you to loose your minds in an ocean of digits...
Peace
your brain is in holiday too when a little search can avoid  wasting our time  :)
Quote from: sabo on March 12, 2005, 01:21:35 PM
Salam Everybody,

I would like to share a very interesting phenomen, which no body is giving attention to. Its the structure of the verses of the Quran and how it is balanced using the Even and the Odd

Definitions


  • 1: even and odd
    even number: a number, which is divisible by 2
    odd number: a number, which is not divisible by 2
  • 2: homogenous and heterogenous
    We define a Sura to be homogeneous, if the number of the sura is even and the number of verses in it is also even, or if the number of the sura is odd and the number of verses in it is also odd.
    Otherwise the sura is heterogenous
  • 3: Suras of the Quran
    There are 114 Suras in the Quran. The sum of numbers from 1-114 = 6555
  • 4: numbered verses in the Quran
    There are 6234 numbered verses in the Quran
The phenomenons

  • There are 60 Suras in the Quran, which have even number of verses.
    These are divided into

    • 30 even sura numbers
    • 30 odd sura numbers
  • There are 54 Suras in the Quran, which have odd number of verses.
    These are divided into

    • 27 even sura numbers
    • 27 odd sura numbers
  • There are 57 homogenous Suras and 57 heterogenous Suras in the Quran
  • The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the homogenous section is: 6234 (compare with definition #4)
  • The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the heterogenous section is: 6555 (compare with definition #3)
  • The number of even Suras in the homogenous section = 30 = The number of odd Suras in the heterogenous section
  • The number of odd Suras in the homogenous section = 27 = The number of even Suras in the heterogenous section
  • The sum of Sura numbers in the homogenous section = 3303 = The sum of the numbered verses of the heterogenous section
  • If we examine the two halves of the Quran (Suras 1-57 and Suras 58-114) we find:

    • The number of homogenous Suras in the first half = 29 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the second half
    • The number of homogenous Suras in the second half = 28 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the first half
  • The sum of the numbered verses in the first 19th chapter is 2346 and the sum of numbered verses of the Quran is 6234, and the 6234 is the 19th permutation of 2346
And today I've observed something amazing:
If we examine the numbered verses of the Quran:
7 286 200 176 120 165 206 75 127 109 123 111 43 52 99 128 111 110 98 135 112 78 118 64 77 227 93 88 69 60 34 30 73 54   45 83 182 88 75 85 54 53 89 59 37 35 38 29 18 45 60 49 62 55 78 96 29 22 24 13 14 11 11 18 12 12 30 52 52 44 28 28 20 56 40 31 50 40 46 42 29 19 36 25 22 17 19 26 30 20 15 21 11 8 8 19 5 8   8 11 11 8 3 9 5 4 7 3 6 3 5 4 5 6

And for each number we see if the number following it is higher or lower and write H for higher and L for lower we will get the following string:
HLLLHHLHLHLLHHHLLLHLLHLHHLLLLLLHLLHHLLHLLHLLLHLLHHLHLHHLLHLHL-HL-HH-LL-LHLLHLHLLLHLLLHHHLLHLL-HLH-H-LLHLLHLHLHLHH

The - means: the number of verses wasn't increased nor decreased

We have in this string 61 L's and 45 H's (difference 16)

But if we see how many times it was switched from high to low (represented as HL or H-L) we'll find: 32 switches

and if we see how many times it was switched from low to high (represented as LH or L-H) we'll find also: 32 switches.
One can not escape the relation between 32 and 16

Now to imagine the complexity of this structure, here is a task for people, who are interested in mathematics and/or programming, what we can just imagine solving it using arrays of integers.

?   Find a prime number P
?   Find N numbers, where each number has an index from 1-N and N is a multiple of P
?   An index is homogeneous if the index is even and the number assigned to it is even, or if the index is odd and the number assigned to it is odd, otherwise its heterogeneous: the number of homogeneous indices must be equal to heterogenic indices
?   The even numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
?   The odd numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
?   The sum of indices from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
?   The sum of numbers from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
?   Even indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to odd indices in the heterogeneous section
?   Odd indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to even indices in the heterogeneous section
?   The sum of indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to the sum of numbers in the heterogeneous section
?   The number of homogeneous indices in the first half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the  second half of indices
?   The number of homogeneous indices in the second half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the  first half of indices
?   The sum of the N numbers should be the P-th permutation of the sum of the number assigned to the first P indices
?   For each number from the N numbers write the number
followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by P
?   For each number from the N numbers write the sum of numbers from 1 to this number followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by P

The 114 numbers given  on this thread fulfill the requirements of this task for P=19

Best regards,
Mohamed

P.S. almost all information are taken from http://www.mucizeler.com/19lar/ciftveteksayi.htm (turkish language, however I don't speak turkish :P)

Can you understand this or you need help  :)
Peace.
[url="http://y19.net"]http://y19.net[/url]

ayman

Peace Holiday,

Quote from: Holiday on December 31, 2008, 03:44:21 PMNot correct; in prior post the column Ch * V is missing (209029 prime) prevents this from occurring...
9 x 29 = 261 .........................................ch * v
11 x 223 = 2453.....................................ch * v
Totals: ................................................209229 not prime!

So you added an extra column of (chapter * # of verses). Still even with this extra column, this stupid Code 19 allows verses to be moved, deleted and added in every chapter. Here is an example that I quickly did in one minute with four chapters (including Chapter 9 and the 1 before it and the 2 after it):

ch   # verses.....57 even...57 odd...ch + v...ch * v
...
8........175.......................183........183.......1400
9.........29..............38....................38.........261
10.......9..........................19..........19..........90
11......223.............234...................234......2453
...
                             
6555...6236..........6236.......6555...12791...209029

19 prime!
12791 prime!
209029 prime!

6555 12791 6236 = 209029 x 31359897
6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989
6236 6555 12791 = 209029 x 29836317

I just picked Chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11 to  move, delete and add verses but I could have picked any combination of chapters or all chapters. As I said, there is a large number of variations by which you can move, delete and add verses and still the stupid code 19 would allow it.

Quote from: Holiday on December 31, 2008, 03:44:21 PMNot my code (includes all verses) rather an observation with 19 being the alluring one as a test, an ayat/sign one of many in Quran.

If it is not your code, then please tell the person who came up with this so-called "code" and the idea that it doesn't allow moving, adding and deleting verses that he or she needs schooling in basic algebra. If he disagrees then he or she is welcome to come here on this thread and debate it with me.

There is nothing in the great reading about 19 being an "ayat". As per 74:31, it is only a "fitna". Those who truly have faith don't need any kind of stupid code.

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on January 01, 2009, 04:57:35 AMIt doesn't look to me like the code is getting "debunked" in that thread at all.

Now it is debunked^2. :)

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
English: [url="http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html"]http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html[/url]

Fuhrer

Come on guys, let's stick to the topic. This is about the number of "Allah" in the Qur'an - not about the existance of 19 code. This is an important topic. It doesn't matter what you think about the Qur'an, or how you intepret it. It's about "irrefutable facts". Let's get the number of occurences right and make our own assumptions based on that in a different thread, shall we?

Thanks.

ayman

Peace Fuhrer,

Quote from: Fuhrer on January 01, 2009, 04:03:59 PMCome on guys, let's stick to the topic. This is about the number of "Allah" in the Qur'an - not about the existance of 19 code. This is an important topic. It doesn't matter what you think about the Qur'an, or how you intepret it. It's about "irrefutable facts". Let's get the number of occurences right and make our own assumptions based on that in a different thread, shall we?

What else is there to argue? 19ers count THREE "allah" in 63:7 when there is clearly only TWO and even Bahman can't argue against that. Their counts of "bism", "rahman", and "rahim" are equally tampered with to get the desired result of a 19 divisible. The only Code 19 pattern anyone with a grain of common sense should see is a pattern of deception. So there is really nothing more to argue in defense of Code 19 except for those who are so obssessed and attracted to the "fitna"/temptation of 19 that they are beyond help.

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
English: [url="http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html"]http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html[/url]

Bahman

Quote from: ayman on January 01, 2009, 04:19:54 PM
Peace Fuhrer,

What else is there to argue? 19ers count THREE "allah" in 63:7 when there is clearly only TWO and even Bahman can't argue against that. Their counts of "bism", "rahman", and "rahim" are equally tampered with to get the desired result of a 19 divisible. The only Code 19 pattern anyone with a grain of common sense should see is a pattern of deception. So there is really nothing more to argue in defense of Code 19 except for those who are so obssessed and attracted to the "fitna"/temptation of 19 that they are beyond help.

Peace,

Ayman
Peace Ayman   :)74:31
[url="http://y19.net"]http://y19.net[/url]

Ahmad Bilal

Peace Ayman,

Quote from: ayman on January 01, 2009, 04:19:54 PM
What else is there to argue? 19ers count THREE "allah" in 63:7 when there is clearly only TWO and even Bahman can't argue against that.

:rotfl: C'mon, brother. I know that you know better than this. This was a mistake made in Rashad's count of the word "allah", but it doesn't take away the count of the word. The original count was the mistaken one, not the revised one. Including the count of 9:129, there are 2699 counts of the word "allah", and therefore, when he removed that allegedly false verse, there were 2698 counts remaining... But I'm sure you probably already knew this, and if you don't believe me, count them yourself...  ::) Everyone who's read Rashad Khalifa's translation of the qur'an knows that he specifically numbers each count of the word "allah" (or "GOD"), and he also does this on his computer program, so each individual can count the words themselves. This is already well-known by everyone who's even looked at his translation of the scriptures. That's why I didn't even bother wasting my time with this topic. The truth is too easy to recognize, and if Holiday was actually searching for the truth, he would've known this right away...

Quote from: ayman on January 01, 2009, 04:19:54 PM
Their counts of "bism", "rahman", and "rahim" are equally tampered with to get the desired result of a 19 divisible. The only Code 19 pattern anyone with a grain of common sense should see is a pattern of deception.

Again, this is your opinion, and it's unfounded. You claim that the qur'an has no mathematical consistency and structure at all; you even reject the nusemantics found within the texts, even though these are clearly established and verified...  :-\ So, you really have no authority to speak against the code 19 concept, since you reject all forms of mathematical verifiability in the message. None of those counts have been tampered with to get a 19-divisible count; you just can't seem to spot the obvious. God has blinded you from seeing the clear truth...

Quote from: ayman on January 01, 2009, 04:19:54 PM
So there is really nothing more to argue in defense of Code 19 except for those who are so obssessed and attracted to the "fitna"/temptation of 19 that they are beyond help.

This is your main scapegoat, and it is still unjustified. The qur'an doesn't say that the count of 19 is "ONLY" a "fitna"/trial; it only mentions that this is ONE OF IT'S USES. Others include:
(1) to give certainty to the people of the "kitaab"/book or scripture,
(2) to increase the faith of those who believe in the message,
(3) to remove all doubt from the people of the scripture, as well as the believers, and
(4) to leave the disbelievers and those with a "sickness in their hearts" to wonder what this example is for
.
After this explanation, it mentions that God guides and sends astray whom He wills. This statement is very significant because it succeeds the statement, speaking about those questioning this example. Therefore, those who aren't knowledgeable of the meaning of this example are mentioned as those with a sickness in their hearts, and these ones are placed alongside the disbelievers/"kaafireen"... In other words, those who reject this sign are called disbelievers, and this is because they reject God's signs. Please stop misleading people, telling them that the code 19 concept is "ONLY" a fitna; this is not what the scripture says, and you and I both know that the word "only" is not used in that passage at all...

Peace,

Ahmad
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Hadi

Peace Ahmed,

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on January 02, 2009, 08:45:41 PM
Please stop misleading people, telling them that the code 19 concept is "ONLY" a fitna; this is not what the scripture says, and you and I both know that the word "only" is not used in that passage at all...

Is that right??!!

وما جعلنا أصحب النار إلا ملئكة وما جعلنا عدتهم إلا فتنة للذين كفروا

If the word "only" is not present in the passage, then please tell us what the word "إلا" means.

Ahmad Bilal

Peace Hadi,

Quote from: Hadi on January 02, 2009, 09:07:51 PM
Is that right??!!

وما جعلنا أصحب النار إلا ملئكة وما جعلنا عدتهم إلا فتنة للذين كفروا

If the word "only" is not present in the passage, then please tell us what the word "إلا" means.

Yes, that is right... The word "إلا" means "to", not "only"...  ::)

Peace,

Ahmad
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov