Author Topic: The Mysterious Two Seas  (Read 6455 times)

simple

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2008, 06:01:14 AM »
Salaams DrFazl, All,

Using lanes and qd.

There is no fish story in the quran! This is the story in brief of Moses, his brother and  pharaoh.

18:60
Behold, Moses said to his adviser, "I will not give up until I reach an understanding/agreement/resolution of the two communities/peoples or I shall go on for as long as it takes."

e.t.c

Might do the remainder but some other time.

God Bless


 :peace:

drfazl

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2008, 07:08:59 AM »
Salaams DrFazl, All

There is no fish story in the quran! This is the story in brief of Moses, his brother and  pharaoh.
18:60
Behold, Moses said to his adviser, "I will not give up until I reach an understanding/agreement/resolution of the two communities/peoples or I shall go on for as long as it takes." Might do the remainder but some other time.

God Bless
 :peace:

Dear simple,

I know there are no stories; and I never said stories here. What made you say that I am talking stories here? Read the post again and reach an understanding. Be humble when speaking on Quran.

Any way,

What is your translation to the ayah 8:61 onwards with regard to ' fish? '
'
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, at least to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, in such a way  http://foolproofcure.net/index.aspx   that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.

simple

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2008, 10:59:25 AM »
Hi drfazl,


18:60
Behold, Moses said to his adviser, "I will not give up until I reach an understanding/agreement/resolution of the two communities/peoples or I shall go on for as long as it takes."

A debate then took place between pharos people and Moses with his brother ?????.

18:61
Consequently when they reached an understanding/agreement/resolution, between them they forsook the affair which took its course in the people unrestrained.


e.t.c
 ;)

Rami

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2008, 01:17:27 PM »
Salaams DrFazl, All,

Using lanes and qd.

There is no fish story in the quran! This is the story in brief of Moses, his brother and  pharaoh.

18:60
Behold, Moses said to his adviser, "I will not give up until I reach an understanding/agreement/resolution of the two communities/peoples or I shall go on for as long as it takes."

e.t.c

Might do the remainder but some other time.

God Bless

 :peace:

Salam simple,

       Keep it simple :D

Peace.

drfazl

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2008, 10:57:44 PM »
Simple,
You cannot fish in the troubled waters; how many unwanted terminologies without knowing what actually you seek ( understanding/agreement/resolution of the two communities/peoples ) from Him. The wisdom! That is it! Now the water is clear: Fish out!
.
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, at least to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, in such a way  http://foolproofcure.net/index.aspx   that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.

simple

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2008, 01:48:55 AM »
Simple,
You cannot fish in the troubled waters; how many unwanted terminologies without knowing what actually you seek ( understanding/agreement/resolution of the two communities/peoples ) from Him. The wisdom! That is it! Now the water is clear: Fish out!
.

drfazl,

troubled waters is the ONE place people can gain wisdom only if you are wise though.

and yes wisdom is just two types as you said; one leading to all good and one leading to all that is bad.

by taking on pharo and his company Moses and his Br got them to understand, agree or pass a resolutuon whereby the people of Moses could leave egypt split the nation apart (into two!)

And depending on how the word Bahr is used it can mean wisdom and people sometimes- as lanes shows- i think.

God Bless.

drfazl

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2008, 11:35:55 AM »
drfazl,

troubled waters is the ONE place people can gain wisdom only if you are wise though.

and yes wisdom is just two types as you said; one leading to all good and one leading to all that is bad.

by taking on pharo and his company Moses and his Br got them to understand, agree or pass a resolutuon whereby the people of Moses could leave egypt split the nation apart (into two!)

And depending on how the word Bahr is used it can mean wisdom and people sometimes- as lanes shows- i think.

God Bless.

Simple,

Every word of Quran has myriad meanings; what you have said is just four different words for Bahr. And for the word 'fish' you brought out certain other meanings; but because they do not fit into the context of the individual that reads it, it does not appeal to him/her.

Next, Firaun and Harun never got them to understand until they drowned; Allah never allowed a lease of life just because Firaun said he had understood, for Allah knows his lie. And when with the knowledge He has allowed upon you, you can build bridges across the seas, is it not possible for the Almighty, to cause a dry passage cleaving the sea? Can Allah do this or He cannot? Believe He does what He wish. He knows all; He has Power over everything.

By His Wisdom you can cleave the sea; and can cleave the heavens too to go beyond at the wink of an eye.

And I never said the wisdom is of two types:
The wisdom has no two types; just one way to Glory and Greatness. Contrarily, the ignorance leads to all that is bad.
.
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, at least to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, in such a way  http://foolproofcure.net/index.aspx   that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.

The Sardar

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2019, 09:08:45 AM »
Salam/Peace, sorry to wake up an old forum but i think we should research to word Bahr and Maraja. Honestly, i am not 100% sure if Bahr is really sea in 55:19-20, 25:53, 27:61, 35:12. Plus Allah (SWTAY) said: He MARAJA (مرج) the bahrayni/لبحرين (dual), we need the check the root words, especially the root word definition:

Ba-Ha-Ra (ب ح ر) =

Slit, cut, divide lengthwise, split, enlarge or make wide
A vast expanse of water (Ocean, sea, huge river)
A fleet swift horse called because of its speed like the rolling of the waves in the sea
A generous man who is ample in his generosity
Wide tract of land, land belonging to or inhabited by people
Any town, village or city that has a running river or a body of water
Low or depressed land
A large meadow or garden
A place where water stagnates
Seaman, sailor
"Bahira" (a camel dedicated to idols, 5:103)?

bahr n.m. (pl. bihar abhur) 2:50, 2:164, 5:96, 6:59, 6:63, 6:97, 7:138, 7:163, 10:22, 10:90, 14:32, 16:14, 17:66, 17:67, 17:70, 18:60, 18:61, 18:63, 18:79, 18:109, 18:109, 20:77, 22:65, 24:40, 25:53, 26:63, 27:61, 27:63, 30:41, 31:27, 31:27, 31:31, 35:12, 42:32, 44:24, 45:12, 52:6, 55:19, 55:24, 81:6, 82:3

bahirah n. 5:103

LL, V1, p: 193, 194  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=bHr

Miim-Ra-Jiim (م ر ج) = pasture, maraja = mixed (one thing with another), flow & flow freely (as separate entities), set forth, mariija = marred/spoiled/corrupted/impaired/disturbed/unsteady/confused.

maraja vb. (1)
perf. act. 25:53, 55:19

marij n.m. 55:15

marij n.m. 50:5

marjan n.m. 55:22, 55:58

LL, V7, p: 232  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=mrj

Interestingly, Musa mentioned AL-BAHRAYANI in 18:60

18:60 واذ قال موسىا لفتىاه لا ابرح حتىا ابلغ مجمع البحرين او امضى حقبا
Wa-ith qala moosa lifatahula abrahu hatta ablugha majmaAAa albahrayniaw amdiya huquban
And Moses said to his youth: "I will not stop until I reach the junction of the bahrayni, or I spend a lifetime trying."

Also the words involving the bahryani verses is AAathbun (عذب), furâtun (فرات), milHun (اجاج), ujâjun (اجاج) and hâdhâ (هاذا):

AAathbun (عذب)

Ayn-Thal-Ba = chastisement, castigate, punishment, torture, torment, retribution, abstain/desist (e.g. from eating due to excessive thirst), relinquish, quit. To deny a thing, hinder anyone from, be inaccessible, prevent.
adhb - palatable, sweet (usually water), e.g. 25:53, 35:12.

'Adhbun (n.): Sweet, Agreeable to taste.
'Adhaba (prf. 3rd. m. sing. II): He punished.
'Adhabnaa (prf. 1st. plu. II): We punished.
Yu'adhdhibu (imp. 3rd. m. sing. II): He will punish, punishes.
Li Yu'dhdhiba (imp. 3rd. m. sing. II. el.): That he may punish.
Laa Yu'adhdhab: None shall execute (his) punishment.
Tu'adhdhibu (imp. 2nd. m. sing. II.): Thou punish.
'Au'adhdhibu (imp. 1st. sing II): I punish.
U'adhdhibanna (imp. 1st. sing. imp.): I will certainly punish.
Nu'dhdhibu (imp. 1st. plu. II): We punish.
Mu'adhdhibun (ap-der. m. sing.): Treat with punishment; Going to punish.
Mu'dhdiribuuna (ap-der. m. plu. acc.): Giver of punishment.
Mu'adhdhibuu (ap-der. m. plu. final Nun dropped; nom.): Chastiser.
Mu'adhdhabiina (pis. plc. m. plu. acc.): Those who are punished.
'Adhaabun (n.): Punishment; Torment; Chastisement.

Furâtun (فرات):

Fa-Ra-Ta = to be sweet (water), thirst quenching, The Euphrate/Tigris.

furat n.m. 25:53, 35:12, 77:27

LL, V6, p: 142  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=frt

MilHun (اجاج):

Miim-Lam-Ha = To suckle or give suck, to be saltish or bitter, to become fat, to be goodly/beautiful/pretty, pleasing to the eye or ear, inclining to gray or whiteness, adopt one as a foster brother.

milh n. com. 25:53, 35:12

LL, V7, p: 259, 260, 261, 262  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=mlH

Ujâjun (اجاج):

Alif-Jiim-Lam = assigned/appointed/specified/decreed term, period, day of resurrection, period between creation and death, period between death and resurrection, period remaining in the world, delay/postponed/deferral of time.

ajlun (par.): reason.
ajal (n.): an appointed time.
ajalain (dual): two terms.
ajjalta (perf. 2nd. m. sing.): thou has appointed.
ujjilat (pp. 3rd. f. sing.): has been fixed (term).
mu'jjalun (pis-pic): fixed term.

ajal n.m. 2:231, 2:232, 2:234, 2:235, 2:282, 2:282, 4:77, 6:2, 6:2, 6:60, 6:128, 7:34, 7:34, 7:135, 7:185, 10:11, 10:49, 10:49, 11:3, 11:104, 13:2, 13:38, 14:10, 14:44, 15:5, 16:61, 16:61, 17:99, 20:129, 22:5, 22:33, 23:43, 28:28, 28:29, 29:5, 29:53, 30:8, 31:29, 35:13, 35:45, 39:5, 39:42, 40:67, 42:14, 46:3, 63:10, 63:11, 65:2, 65:4, 71:4, 71:4

ajl n.m. 5:32

ajjala vb. (2)
perf. act. 6:128
perf. pass. 77:12
pcple. pass. 3:145

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages: 61, 62, 63  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=ajl

Now i couldn't find hâdhâ (هاذا) in PRL so maybe brother Wakas could help out on this.

Is anyone here have any scientific knowledge can give us any information on any vast expanse of water involving with salty and bitter and palatable and sweet?


zigazigha

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2019, 06:30:54 AM »
I don't know if anyone has already said this but this actually makes sense. I came to the same conclusion a few months ago after reading this article https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/08/no-really-there-is-a-scientific-explanation-for-the-parting-of-the-red-sea-in-exodus/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.91dc2c68f39d which explains how it is more probable that Moses crossed a river rather than the Red Sea.

Jafar

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Re: The Mysterious Two Seas
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2019, 11:06:07 PM »
As of now; there is no strong evidence that the mass migration (exodus) and the parting of the sea (whichever sea) did happened.

But if the event was happening around 1250 BC, there are strong and abundant evidences of 'something big' happened around that time. We call such phenomenon as "Bronze Age Collapse".

What is Bronze Age collapse?
It was combination of multiple big events;
1. Massive invasion from unknown sources (only labelled as "sea people" as those people suddenly coming out from the sea, not literally coming out from the sea though like mermaid, but disembark using massive amount of ships, similar to viking raids)
2. Plague / Economic hardship
3. Insurgency / Rebellion

If we view the story of "Moses led migration" as "rebellion of slaves against their own master" then it fits the category #3. What is it? It is a massive revolution happening around middle east, similar to "Arab Springs" yet on steroid and unlike the Arab springs, it was a massive 'success'.

An intersection of events happened with evidence found in Jericho. While Moses legend told stories that the Jericho wall was destroyed due to raid by israelites ('miraculously' through the sound of the trumpet). The evidence pointed out different story, the evidence shows that the Jericho wall was destroyed from the inside, which means destroyed by it's own populace. A strong evidence of massive unrest / rebellion happening from inside the city. Thus the destruction of Jericho's wall did happened, during such era, but not due to 'miraculous' sound of the  trumpet as told by Moses legend, but due to unrest within the city.

The hypothesis supported by another evidence of pottery found around Jericho, pottery found prior to 1250 BC were decorated with massive and complex decoration while pottery found after 1250 BC were plain without any decoration. This shows that after the events, it seems that there the tradition evolves into more of practicality and egalitarian societies. (decorated pottery is expensive and functional, plain pottery is cheap and yet functional)

This again match with Moses legend, it was told that the Israelites after their escape, built a classless and socialist society without any royalty / king. The land belong collectively to the people, in the legend it was told that they divide the management of the land in accordance to the tribes. They appointed judges to resolve any conflicts but there was no king / royalty.

It's plausible that the Moses legend did happened (the slave rebellion towards Egyptian royalty) but the details of the event might not exactly 100% to be true. Or in other words, the Moses legend was based on the true events and true story with embellishments..

The successful rebellion of Moses, might inspire slaves / lower class in other area to rebel against their own master, just like an unrest in Tunisia inspire unrest against their respective dictatorial regimes in other areas during Arab springs.

In overall: The "Bronze Age Collapse" resulted in the demise of the old super power empires (Egyptian and Hittites) and mark the beginning of new "Iron Age Era" where new empire slowly grow to power (Assyrian, Persian, Greek /Macedon and then Roman Empire)

Similar to how World War II resulted in the demise of British and French empire and mark the beginning of "cold war era" where many new countries rebelled / sprung up due to demise of their european colonial master and USA and Soviet Union contested for global power...

You can google "Bronze Age Collapse" for the details, if you're curious...