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A Question About Jinns

Started by Supernaut, November 20, 2008, 08:55:27 PM

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Ahmad Bilal

Peace Supernaut,

Quote from: Supernaut on November 21, 2008, 09:01:36 AM
Satan wasn't an angel; Satan was a controller (which is an accurate translation of Malaika).

Even though "controller" is a more accurate translation of the Arabic word "malayka", from the scriptures, it is scripturally referring to the angelic beings, not those who physically control things. Indeed, Allah is the One who is in control of all things, and He is the controller. Satan (Iblis) was among the angelic beings, and he became a jinn.

Quote from: Supernaut on November 21, 2008, 09:01:36 AM
Perhaps when the great reading says "No Jinn ever touched them", it means "The human mind can't grasp such a concept". You should read Ayman's article. You can read it at http://www.free-minds.org/ayman

I read Ayman's article, and it is incorrect in terms of an accurate translation of that verse. 55:74 is a continuation of the previous verses, and after each one, the question arises, "Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?" This is followed by the statement:

They relax on green carpets, in beautiful surroundings. (55:76)

Well, obviously this verse isn't speaking about jinns or about the human mind. It's speaking about the spouses/mates mentioned in 55:70. So, in this case, "jinn" can't be referring to a "fantasy" since the verse is speaking about a physical touching.

Peace,

Ahmad
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Muslimtruthrevealed

Quote from: anna on November 21, 2008, 02:33:45 PM
im sorry, i really dont know what you are trying to say , i have read the ayat before it and after it,what does our spirit our soul have anything to do with jinn

The Quran is designed to speak to our Nafs.....Soul

Thus when you read Sura Al-Jinn 72, Allah is speaking to your nafs, your Jinn

[Al-Jinn 72.1] Qul Uhiya ilayya annahu istamaAAa nafarun mina aljinni faqaloo inna samiAAna quranan AAajaban

Uhiya ilayya = ?it is occurring to me, I am inspired, the idea is suggesting itself?

Its becoming apparent to 'You', that the Jinn that is with You HEAR = annahu istamaAAa nafarun mina aljinni

istamaAAa(perfect verb, 3rd person, Verb Form VIII) means TO HEAR/LISTEN; he heard or listened, to pay attention, to hear, to recite, listen secretly

nafarun mina aljinni

Nafar(un) (perfect tense, 3rd person, masculine, SINGULAR) means person, individual, party NOT less than 3

The Jinn, Yourself and Angels recording...are reflecting upon the Quran

[Qaf 50.17] Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

[Qaf 50.18] Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

You, Jinn & Angels are bearing witness to the Quran and its instruction = faqaloo inna samiAAna quranan AAajaban

?It is occurring to YOU that as a party / nafarun we are hearing/ samiAAna with Jinn, the Quran beautiful and we are pleased / AAajaban?

[Al-Jinn 72.2] 'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein. we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.

Im not sure how someone else has derived that 'Jinn' is a 'fantasy, cant understand how they came to that conclusion.

When Allah is speaking directly to our Jinn in Sura Al-Jinn 72.

[Saba' 34.49] Say. "The Truth has arrived, and FALSEHOOD NEITHER CREATES ANYTHING NEW, NOR RESTORES ANYTHING."

ayman

Peace everyone,

Quote from: Supernaut on November 20, 2008, 08:55:27 PMAyman argued very convincingly that the Jinns are fantasies (creativity) in part 2 of his article titled "How Did It Come To This?", but I can't see how understanding Jinns as fantasies works in 34:14 which says:

34:14. So when We decreed on him death, nothing indicated to them his death except a mover of the earth eating his staff. So when he fell, it was revealed to the fantasies that had they known the hidden, they wouldn't have stayed in the degrading suffering.

Why did the fantasies learn of Solomon's death only after he fell to the ground? Shouldn't Solomon's brain activity have ceased the instant he died or shortly thereafter? How did they continue to undergo their suffering even after Solomon's death if they were indeed the creative part of his mind?

Fantasies don?t know anything beyond what our senses can feed them. The products of our fantasies can be machines with sensors and so on but nothing that tells the non-physical hidden side. For example, in the case of Solomon?s death, the fantasies could have created a device to listen to the heartbeat or a heat sensing device to measure body temperature. However, all those devices are much like the falling of the staff that Solomon was leaning on. They provide a physical indication of death. They don?t peer into the hidden side to get the info directly.

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on November 21, 2008, 08:16:21 AMThere are only certain places where those meanings (i.e. "jinn"=fantasy) would actually fit. For example:

O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers. (6:130)

If jinn meant "fantasy", this would imply that our fantasies receive messengers from among the fantasies, and this is not logical.

Fantasies do indeed receive messages and messengers (all humans, including messengers have fantasies). Much of the great reading (all the allegorical passages that rely on our imagination) is directed towards fantasies.

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on November 21, 2008, 08:16:21 AMWe said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He was/became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute! (18:50)

Satan is here described among the angels, and this makes it illogical for him to be a fantasy after the scripture verifies his reality. A real person can't be or become a fantasy.

The problem is that you are thinking of ?malaika? in the sense of mythological angels, or winged people wearing white robes with halos hovering on the top of their heads.  You are not thinking of them as controllers. A controller is not a specific specie but can be any specie. It is an attribute. Thus, 18:50 says that Satan WAS a fantasy/jinn. A fantasy in control and given control of certain aspects of the universe is a controller. A controller by definition obeys the god. As soon as any controller (fantasy or other creature) disobeys the god then they cease to be a controller.

Satan is not a ?real person?. You are again thinking in terms of Judeo-Christian mythology of Satan being a red guy with horns and a pointy tail. The reality that we can empirically verify is that the ultimate source of all evil that we do is our fantasy not a guy with a huge fork.

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on November 21, 2008, 08:16:21 AMNo human ever touched them, nor a jinn. (55:74)

If jinns are simply fantasies, then this verse would be illogical, since fantasies can't physically touch anything or anyone. There are other examples as well that show the concept to be more logical if jinns were actually a separate group of people/separate species of beings, not imaginary creatures.

Do you seriously think that 55:74 is about virgins that no humans and alien ?species of beings? or guys with horns touched?

I think that it is more logical that the imagination didn?t touch them. In other words, we can?t even imagine them. This is empirically verifiable since we can?t even imagine what the mates in Chapter 55 will be like.

Quote from: WayFinder on November 21, 2008, 09:19:52 AMWhat does it mean to you when you say Satan was a controller?  He was a controller of what?

Whatever matter the god gave control to Satan in. Controllers are given different things to control. We are given the example of the controller of death in the great reading.

Quote from: WayFinder on November 21, 2008, 09:19:52 AMAs for Jinns, it seem to be very clear from Al-Quran that they are creatures, which share some of our characteristics...  When we read Surah Al-Jinn, it says a group of Jinns were passing by and they heard the Quran being recited and they responded to it in a positive manner...  So they have the ability to hear, think and reflect, detect the truth and formulate an opinion on issues...  Same qualities that we have as humans...  However, we should always focus on the CLEAR verses and not try to force interpretation and see things which are not there...

Fantasies are part of the human psyche. So they share and provide our characteristics. When we listen, they are listening too.

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on November 21, 2008, 02:37:56 PMEven though "controller" is a more accurate translation of the Arabic word "malayka", from the scriptures, it is scripturally referring to the angelic beings, not those who physically control things. Indeed, Allah is the One who is in control of all things, and He is the controller. Satan (Iblis) was among the angelic beings, and he became a jinn.

The god gives control to whom he wills and takes it away from whom he wills. Being a controller is about being given control by the god. It is not about mythical angelic beings.

Satan was already a ?jinn? and control can be given to a ?jinn? by the god if he decides to do so. He simply stopped being a controller when he disobeyed the god.

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on November 21, 2008, 02:37:56 PMI read Ayman's article, and it is incorrect in terms of an accurate translation of that verse. 55:74 is a continuation of the previous verses, and after each one, the question arises, "Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?" This is followed by the statement:

They relax on green carpets, in beautiful surroundings. (55:76)

Well, obviously this verse isn't speaking about jinns or about the human mind. It's speaking about the spouses/mates mentioned in 55:70. So, in this case, "jinn" can't be referring to a "fantasy" since the verse is speaking about a physical touching.

Do you really think that green carpets like the ones that we are familiar with is what is being talked about here?

This is clearly an allegorical passage and it goes back to the fact that the fantasies can?t know the hidden. The god gives us those allegories so that our fantasy tries to comprehend and be guided but the reality of the hidden is not even close.

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
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WayFinder

Peace brother Ayman

Your post shows how much you are convinced in what you are advocating.... :)

No problem though... Our minds remain open and we should be using it to come to conclusions... It is good that you are defending your theory...

I have a question...

How will you explain POSSESSION cases from JINNS... Here in my country it is widespread...  And when exorcised, these JINNS will usually talk through the mouth of the victim and tell who sent them and how they were sent...

There was a case here where the JINN told the exorcist to go to a particular beach, an exact location, to dig there and this was what he did... He found a paper with names written on it... and the name of the possessed person was on the list... So how can you explain this? 

Can I send my fantasy to someone else?  Or command it to do so and so...

Will wait for your reply.

Peace brother.
3:7 He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
[url=http://oulilalbaab.wordpress.com/] :welcome: MY BLOG - [/url][url=http://is.gd/eJaMO]  FACEBOOK :peace:[/url]

Supernaut


Supernaut

Quote from: WayFinder on November 26, 2008, 06:25:30 PMHow will you explain POSSESSION cases from JINNS... Here in my country it is widespread...  And when exorcised, these JINNS will usually talk through the mouth of the victim and tell who sent them and how they were sent...

Have you ever seen that happening? Is there any evidence beside anecdotal evidence of such a thing happening? Perhaps it's only the so-called "possessed person" who's talking.

Quote from: WayFinder on November 26, 2008, 06:25:30 PMThere was a case here where the JINN told the exorcist to go to a particular beach, an exact location, to dig there and this was what he did... He found a paper with names written on it... and the name of the possessed person was on the list... So how can you explain this?

I think the person themselves had buried the list of names and spoke from memory. People do crazy things for attention and tales of possession normally come from places where the people are generally uneducated and therefore more likely to be superstitious. In almost all the stories I've heard about witchcraft and possession, the incidents of witchcraft and possession occurred in villages.

WayFinder

Peace

I never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people... Once a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true...  The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...

Regards
3:7 He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
[url=http://oulilalbaab.wordpress.com/] :welcome: MY BLOG - [/url][url=http://is.gd/eJaMO]  FACEBOOK :peace:[/url]

Mutazilah

QuoteI never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people... Once a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true...  The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...

  :yes always a friend of a friend had such experiences... but... your phone call is innovative :)
A se le?i Ljubljen u Vrhbosni ro?den v Vrhbosni zakpan na svojini na plemenitoj. Ja bjeh onaj tkoji cijel ?ivot na raskrsnicam stajah, razmi?ljah, oklijevah. Bjeh onaj tkoji se pitah kak to da nebo ne stari a iz njeg se stalno rad?aju nova i nova godi?nja doba. I u sobi gdje bjeh bje?e prozor, a iza prozora beskraj. Al ja uporno gledah u pod. I mi?ljah mojom smerti sve tće to konečno stati. Al nije i moja smert sve star?a i sve tje?nja je. Kam mi usječe Dra?eta a zapis upisa Husan ne da poka?u da bjeh vetć da me vi?lje neima. LJeta gospodnjeg 1258.

Supernaut

Peace,

Quote from: WayFinder on November 27, 2008, 10:50:02 AMI never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people...

Please forgive me, but I think that's rather unwise. Your belief that possession is real is based on hearsay, which is the worst reason to believe something.

Quote from: WayFinder on November 27, 2008, 10:50:02 AMOnce a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true...  The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...

There are a trillion reasons why people yell and cry. The person you're talking about could've been in a lot of pain and misery. I think belief in possession can be dangerous because a person's strange behaviour can be due to something very serious. Dismissing something that's serious as a case of possession will leave that serious issue unresolved.

anna

Quote from: Mutazilah on November 27, 2008, 11:07:43 AM
  :yes always a friend of a friend had such experiences... but... your phone call is innovative :)
dont ruin his excitment about it, how do you know hes innovating, it would be nice to trust a little,