What Does The Word Makkah Mean?

[Q_student]

Peace Mazhar,

Saying that Mecca never had fortification walls while this discussion is about the meaning of "mecca" is a circular argument. You have already baselessly assumed that "mecca" is the name of some town. Please read the title of this thread. What you are saying is like saying "in ancient times vampires never slept during the day". First you have to prove that there was such as thing as "vampires".

Peace,

Ayman

Peace :
Ayman ! you do not understand such a simple linguistic principle that "Proper Nouns " are not translated.
As we do not translate January ,February ,March ,or Sunday ,Monday etc.So Mecca being a Proper Noun cannot be Translated.
Is this not used as a Diptote in the Quran ?
Regards

[Mazhar]

Peace Mazhar,

Saying that Mecca never had fortification walls while this discussion is about the meaning of "mecca" is a circular argument. You have already baselessly assumed that "mecca" is the name of some town. Please read the title of this thread. What you are saying is like saying "in ancient times vampires never slept during the day". First you have to prove that there was such as thing as "vampires".

Peace,

Ayman

What you quoted back was a parethetic. Issue was about your conclusion:

Notice the use of the word "athfarakum" (gave you the upper hand) not "nasarakum" (gave you victory) in

48:24. Ayman

This was responded:

"athfarakum"  is more close to convey the perception of victory, dominance as compared to "nasarakum", helped you.

Which of the two is true? Pl opine.

[ayman]

Peace Ahmad,

Can you explain how the context of the passage implies that "makka" means destruction?

The context is a war in an urban area. War in an urban area and destruction go hand in hand. This is especially true in ancient times where urban areas had fortifications and walls that had to be destroyed for the army to enter the town and hand to hand street combat to take place.

You quoted from Yusuf Ali's translation, but that's not even a proper translation, since it conveys the incident in a present tense. Since the actual reading of this passage is referring to something that happened in the past (from the time of that revelation), it changes the idea of the message. It implies that BOTH parties/armies were in "babatni makkata" (i.e. midst of destruction, valley/borders of Makka). How is it possible that they were all in the "midst of destruction" if Allah gave the believers the victory? How could BOTH groups be facing impending destruction from the other?

Can you please show the word "nasr" (victory) in the passage? The exact word used is "athfarakum" (gave you the upper hand). So here we clearly have a situation where the following things happened (in sequence):

1. The walls and fortifications AROUND the city have been destroyed.
2. As a result of this destruction, now the invading army has the upper hand and it is a virtual certainty that they will win the war.
3. The invading army enters the city and meets with its defenders and therefore both are in the MIDST/CENTER of the destruction that is AROUND them.
4. Hand to hand street combat is about to begin.
5. Cooler heads prevail and the fighting is stopped to avert civilian casualties.

Also, if "makka" was being described as a common noun (i.e. destruction) which was impending upon the people, and Allah was giving a description of the events, wouldn't it make more sense to clearly identify the event with "the" (i.e. babatni al makkati), instead of leaving it separate in the form of an adjective or a proper name? I could be wrong, though... What's your take on this?

What you are saying would make sense only if the specific type of destruction or what was specifically destroyed was important or was mentioned elsewhere. In this instance, clearly this doesn't add value to the idea of the passage since, for example, it doesn't matter if the destruction happened as a result of catapults or rams or whatever. The important thing is that there was destruction around them. So the indefinite "destruction" works better and is more to the point.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Q_student,

Ayman ! you do not understand such a simple linguistic principle that "Proper Nouns " are not translated.
As we do not translate January ,February ,March ,or Sunday ,Monday etc.So Mecca being a Proper Noun cannot be Translated.
Is this not used as a Diptote in the Quran ?

In order to know if it is Diptote according to CA rules, you had to look at the vocalization mark on the final Taa Marbuta in "mekkah". It is an indisputable fact that the great reading doesn't follow the CA rules for vocalization marks, especially those at the endings of words. I am 100% sure that you don't follow them either. So like those other instances where you completely ignore the case endings inserted by grammarians when you read the great reading in its real Arabic tongue, the vocalization mark at the end of the word "mekkah" should also be ignored. I hope that I was clear since what I am saying is very well known. If not, please let me know what doesn't make sense and why and I can try to provide more info and examples strictly from internal evidence from the great reading alone. Thanks.

Peace,

Ayman

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace Ayman,

The context is a war in an urban area. War in an urban area and destruction go hand in hand. This is especially true in ancient times where urban areas had fortifications and walls that had to be destroyed for the army to enter the town and hand to hand street combat to take place.

Agreed.

Can you please show the word "nasr" (victory) in the passage? The exact word used is "athfarakum" (gave you the upper hand).

I disagree with this one. Doesn't "athfarakum" mean something more like 'gave you triumph'? It comes from the word "azfara", which literally implies being victorious or successful, triumphing over another.
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/27_ZA.htm

So here we clearly have a situation where the following things happened (in sequence):

1. The walls and fortifications AROUND the city have been destroyed.
2. As a result of this destruction, now the invading army has the upper hand and it is a virtual certainty that they will win the war.
3. The invading army enters the city and meets with its defenders and therefore both are in the MIDST/CENTER of the destruction that is AROUND them.
4. Hand to hand street combat is about to begin.
5. Cooler heads prevail and the fighting is stopped to avert civilian casualties.

I understand your concept of the order of events. However, since "azfara" implies one group being victorious over another, then it doesn't make sense to say that BOTH groups were in the midst of destruction. The city is considered the sanctuary. Therefore, once it's walls are breached, the residents of the city are considered to be in danger, or in the midst of destruction. However, this would NOT apply to both parties; it would only apply to those who's city is facing annihilation. The other (invading) army would be considered victorious.

What you are saying would make sense only if the specific type of destruction or what was specifically destroyed was important or was mentioned elsewhere. In this instance, clearly this doesn't add value to the idea of the passage since, for example, it doesn't matter if the destruction happened as a result of catapults or rams or whatever. The important thing is that there was destruction around them. So the indefinite "destruction" works better and is more to the point.

That's an interesting take on it, but it would seem to make more sense if the definate article ("al") was used in this verse, since it would specifiy exactly what "destruction" was being mentioned, i.e. babatni al makkati. The people would know what the passage is speaking of, instead of leaving it up in the air. In this case, nobody knows what battle is being referred to, since no date or location is mentioned... Still, thanks for your input. It's a very good perspective, and it's something we should definately look into...

Peace,

Ahmad

[ayman]

Peace Ahmad,

I disagree with this one. Doesn't "athfarakum" mean something more like 'gave you triumph'? It comes from the word "azfara", which literally implies being victorious or successful, triumphing over another.
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/27_ZA.htm
I understand your concept of the order of events. However, since "azfara" implies one group being victorious over another, then it doesn't make sense to say that BOTH groups were in the midst of destruction. The city is considered the sanctuary.

I think that given the relationship of the word with claws. It is better understood as "put them within your claws", in other words "gave you the upper hand". This is similar to an eagle who catches a prey with its claws but hasn't finished it off yet. So now the eagle has the upper hand and the demise of the prey is almost certain.

Therefore, once it's walls are breached, the residents of the city are considered to be in danger, or in the midst of destruction. However, this would NOT apply to both parties; it would only apply to those who's city is facing annihilation. The other (invading) army would be considered victorious.

Destruction and danger are two separate issues. An army can be in danger in the middle of the desert with no destruction around. In this case, both armies were in the midst of destruction. The term that conveys danger is "athfarkum 3alayhm" or "put them within your claws", indicating that only the defenders of the city were in danger.

That's an interesting take on it, but it would seem to make more sense if the definate article ("al") was used in this verse, since it would specifiy exactly what "destruction" was being mentioned, i.e. babatni al makkati. The people would know what the passage is speaking of, instead of leaving it up in the air. In this case, nobody knows what battle is being referred to, since no date or location is mentioned... Still, thanks for your input. It's a very good perspective, and it's something we should definately look into...

Do you know of any other instances in the great reading where the date and location of a battle or anything else is mentioned? I would say that leaving info that is not relevant to the lesson to be learned up in the air is the norm in the great reading. It is the other way around that would have been abnormal.

Peace,

Ayman

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace Ayman,

I think that given the relationship of the word with claws. It is better understood as "put them within your claws", in other words "gave you the upper hand". This is similar to an eagle who catches a prey with its claws but hasn't finished it off yet. So now the eagle has the upper hand and the demise of the prey is almost certain.

Okay, that sounds like a very possible meaning, based on that analogy...

Destruction and danger are two separate issues. An army can be in danger in the middle of the desert with no destruction around. In this case, both armies were in the midst of destruction. The term that conveys danger is "athfarkum 3alayhm" or "put them within your claws", indicating that only the defenders of the city were in danger.

This makes sense, but it still has the idea of victory contained in it. For example, "zafiyra" refers to a conquest or a success, rising above another, or gaining possession of something. Even if you looked at this from the standpoint of "putting them within your claws (or grasp/clutches)", it still implies a definate victory. Or am I misinterpreting this? To me, it sounds like one army is winning, while the other is losing.

Do you know of any other instances in the great reading where the date and location of a battle or anything else is mentioned? I would say that leaving info that is not relevant to the lesson to be learned up in the air is the norm in the great reading. It is the other way around that would have been abnormal.

You're correct, I agree with you on this. In nearly all cases (that I've seen), the date and place have been left out because they're not necessary to the teaching of the story... The problem, however, comes in with this case because Makka (the place) is regarded as the location of the "hajj". Therefore, this place would have to be mentioned in the Qur'aan in order to give it stability. So, if (hypothetically) this is the location of the "hajj", then it would be perfectly sensible for the Qur'aan to mention the location of this place, especially if relaying it as a historical event that's religiously relevant. It does the same thing for the countries of Egypt and Babylon when pertaining to the Israelites, since these are events the Israelites could easily attest to and declare as factual according to their history. This is an event implied in the surrounding verses...

For example, Q. 48:20 says that Allah withheld the hands of the people from the believers. 48:21 says that He eliminated their opposition, whom they believed they couldn't have possibly defeated. 48:22 says that the disbelievers would flee from them. 48:23 says that this is Allah's system, and He's done these same things throughout history. Then, 48:24 gives a descriptive example of how He aided them. Plus, 48:25 goes moreso into detail regarding how and why He aided them, and it mentions how He kept them from harming the believers among those opposing nations...

As we can see from these verses, the passage is referring to a specific event. It's not a general battle of moral illustration, it's speaking about an actual event, one that the listeners would be aware of and grow in belief. Therefore, like the case of the Israelites, it would make sense for the Qur'aan to give the name of the area, since it would strengthen the believers, because they'd undoubtedly be aware of the event... At least how I see it.

Peace,

Ahmad

[herbman]

Peace,

48:24] He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression against you, and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the mids of Mecca, after He had granted you victory over them. GOD is Seer of everything you do.

[48:25] It is they who disbelieved and barred you from the Sacred Masjid, and even prevented your offerings from reaching their destination. There were believing men and women (within the enemy camp) whom you did not know, and you were about to hurt them, unknowingly. GOD thus admits into His mercy whomever He wills. If they persist, He will requite those among them who disbelieve with a painful retribution.

My understanding  of Mekkah would be better translated with the word "chaos" instead of "destruction".
Then the "context" is explained by itself, in the middle of chaos God withheld their hands from yours because you were about to hurt innocents.

regards