Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

[Bahman]

There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.

Peace.
3 seconds more then your post time was 19:19:19
The sky is visible but Creator is invisible.
If you show me a sign of such invisible creator like apple falling from tree is a sign for existence of invisible gravity.
All religions claiming heir book is the divine one and none of them can show a proof for it.  But now we have proof for divinity of Quran GR by  code 19. Simple to understand-impossible to imitate.
If you can imitate one of the simple one like this then I would like to hear more from you.
Peace.

[Lobster]

Peace Supernaut,

Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2:260 and 2:214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.

Okay I'll concede that we can't always be 100% sure. We do have doubts from time to time and it is great to question our beliefs, obviously.

Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.

Okay, but their faith in what? We should believe in the truth because it is true. Not because there is a code.
There is a difference between having faith in the truth and having faith in a book that's supposed to be true. In the end if the message is true, then we should believe in it. Regardless of the code.
And the fact of life is that we have to see to believe. You can't believe without seeing. If you do there will always be doubt. A code can never be a substitute for verification through direct observation.
I don't know. Maybe a code might help some people. But I still think it's an unnecessary crutch that distracts from the message.

We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 21:30 and 51:47.

Maybe. But I don't think that's what the reading means by those verses. Usually the simplest explanation is the best one. The interpretation that those verses are talking about the big bang because god wrote this book and he put that information in there as a sign is an too complex of an explanation. A simpler explanation would just be that those verses are metaphorical.

I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.

I didn't mean humans are like on and off switches. I meant truth and falsehood is. There's no middle ground. We need to use our powers of observations to figure out which is which.

I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.

I think it's good that you know that you have blind faith and you are striving for something better. You're probably afraid that you might not be able to get rid of that blind faith so maybe you want there to be a code which would solve that problem?
I was in the same boat you are but then I realized that I can't keep believing blindly. I had doubts about the quran but I kept ignoring them. But then I thought what the heck why don't I just conclude for now that it's wrong because that's the best understanding I have. If later I learn something new I will change my beliefs.
I was just afraid of disbelieving in the quran. And also because it was one thing in my beliefs that was reliable, and I didn't want to lose that.
But then I realized that the quran's not the only path to God. I can do without it. There are so many different translations, so many different interpretations that I just feel it's no longer worth it for me. I would have to spend years and years trying to understand which way to interpret a single word.
I've decided to take Abraham's way and figure things out on my own. I've been pretty decent at it so far. And there are always people who help you along the way. And sometimes you learn something new and you think, I've read that in the quran somewhere.

I was reading Daniel Dennett's (an atheist) book about free will. And it made me think that you can't look back at an event and think, I wish things had turned out differently, because you don't know what might've happened. I was in an accident earlier this year. And I can't wish that it didn't happen because for all I know I could've gotten into a worse crash down the road. And that reminded me of a particular story in the quran. The one with Moses.

I think the quran's poetry. There's a lot of metaphors in it. You don't really understand it unless you've experienced what it's talking about. That's why I think the quran's probably been altered because some parts just don't sound like that.
Like I used to have no idea what love songs were about when I was a kid, but then you experience it and you understand what they mean.

Anyway, if you think the code might help you, then you should listen to Ayman and Edip's debate and see if it really does exist. My take on it is that it doesn't. But you should read what the experts have to say.

[Lobster]

Peace.
3 seconds more then your post time was 19:19:19
The sky is visible but Creator is invisible.
If you show me a sign of such invisible creator like apple falling from tree is a sign for existence of invisible gravity.
All religions claiming heir book is the divine one and none of them can show a proof for it.  But now we have proof for divinity of Quran GR by  code 19. Simple to understand-impossible to imitate.
If you can imitate one of the simple one like this then I would like to hear more from you.
Peace.

Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.

I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.

The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.

[Edip Yuksel]

AYMAN: Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.

EDIP: I have not yet many of the discussions on this thread, including yuors. I just noticed your assertion above. None claimed that the symetry in relation to the number of chapters with odd and even verses alone was safeguarding the verses of the chapters.

However, you missed the point. If you wished to challenge this observation, you should have tried randomly changing the numbers, not deliberately changing them. Since, code 19 of the Quran was not known before 1974, the  changes made in the number of verses by those who lived before 1974 would most likely destroy this symmetry.

Peace,
Edip

[Bahman]

Peace Bahman,
I don't understand why you pick one sentence out of all I've written and respond to just that. I'd like you to address my whole argument like Supernaut has been patiently doing.

I also don't understand the obsession with "divinity." Honestly I don't care about that. If a teaching is true I follow it, if it's not I discard it. It's that simple. I don't get why you have to make it so complicated.

The quran's divinity doesn't help me with anything. The truth does. So I'll look for the truth, and you can keep looking for the divinity. Whatever that is.

Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious 
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
Peace

[Bahman]

Peace Nun, everyone,

As Nun says,.....

Peace Ayman
That was Nun's
No interlock :
No security, no divinity and simply the claim collapse . Masha Allah . Please try this one too    Click to image takes you to source.

Peace

[Lobster]

Peace
I would like to make simple and short . Time is precious 
Do you believe in existence of superhuman as creator ?
Peace

Peace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?

I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.
But there are much much better ways for this creator to convince of its existence than a numerological pattern.

[Bahman]

Peace Bahman,
what is a superhuman?
I'm don't believe there is a god the way religions describe. There might be an intelligent creator, but I don't think there is much evidence of that.

Peace
That is exactly I was believing prior to 10 years ago.
expecting an evidence ,  proof,  sign.  Some how  Creator, Superhuman. God, Lord, Jesus, Allah, GD ?
to show his existence by an evidence.  Like  Moses stock, opening sea .jesus miracles,??..
But none of those could persuade me  when we have all kind of knowledge, tools, to be truth when I am not there like Moon landing , as is claimed was movie right or wrong evidence like this can not be claimed as we can produce better miracle on this screen than what we read in book scientifically.
With such belief and a incident caused I do my search now on this screen late 1997.
I reached the site claiming that have proof for existence of God and his sign , evidence for this era generation knowing how to use this screen that can do their own search and examination in their kitchen and test it without any help from any body.
What is most important field of knowledge in past and present and future is knowledge of numbers which transforms to many subfields like arithmetic, mathematic, geometry, trigonometry?..
Our life without number is no possible in this era, we are attached to numbers everywhere.  What better Miracle ( evidence) using these simple numbers 1-9 .
I bet that there is no one there on this screen do not know how to do 4 arithmatic functions +-/*

I was one of those that do not posses high mathematic knowledge but enough to understand when Rashad says he discovered :
First chapter of  GR  has seven verses , when we write chapter  1  followed by  1234567
It is multiple of 19.
My response in my mind was BS any book with 7 numbered phrases can have same arrangement.
But my second taught was , Oh look , look closely, watch what you in that pattern.
Every 19 number adding or deducting can make another one.
Say if we add 19 the new pattern would be multiple of 19
1234586
but the pattern for 7 verses disappears
the I said how if I relocate numbers . Oh that is stupid to do as son I relocate the number then no more normal sequence 1234567
This 7 was stamped in my brain and all time I was thinking what message is there that first chapter has been chosen 7
Took while until I search and found many 7 in GR.
[urlhttp://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12251.msg179418#msg179418]You can read rest here [/url] and I would be happy if you can produce one like that.
If you need more explanation please do not hesitate
Peace. 

[progod]

Peace,

16:125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them (jidal) in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. [/quote}

In seeing the word hajj as debate it will always be a jidaal. hajj is a logical debate, jidaal can be a logical or an illogical debate, a gracious or an ungracious one. Any debate will always be a jidaal. That is why i don't believe that the hajj we make is a debate in any fashion.

I most likely will not be privy to this discussion unless it is uploaded to youtube. In that case I will listen to it unless if find it distasteful or irrelevant as a whole. I'm not into these debates where people anxiously wait for one or the other to be logical crushed and defeated. I don't even know why it gets to this point. If this is a mutual discussion then that is fine. But a debate is completely unncessary. Despite that i hope it is fruitful. I just hope this is not a climb for leadership of a large portion of Free-mind Quranites. That would be unfortunate, although it might be inevitable as people rarely come together on the principles of cooperation, comprehension, mutual consultation and mutual progress. Rather it seems that mankind has this vile, instinctive side that follows behind the strong horse and loves rebellious spirit and fanciful man-made innovations.

Anyway, I won't be too negative. I don't expect much but may God bless you both and lead your towards some progress on this issue for the sake of all 19er's, Khalifite submitters' and all Quran-centered Muslims.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Nun de plume]

Peace Ayman,

Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum.

You could have easily stated that without being all pompous about it.

See excellent point above made by Edip.

What I posted is only the basic shell of the external structure and still remains to discover the internal pattern/key for each individual Surah, # of verses, words, etc...

Where do you see books arranged like this? (you may have to download and enlarge)



If you can?t see the obvious pattern above, it must be the screen which blinds the self.



Peace Bahman,

Pertaining to Chapter 1 in that video, no problem with any of that which needs further research to be consistently applied for each chapter.

My only issue is with Chapter 9 and removing the two verses (major contradiction) along with claims of messenger and other nonsense which get into peoples heads. Imagine if everyone who discovered something new in Quran did that ? It?s only pattern same as a crystal structure. No need to freak out and proclaim oneself a messenger over observing it.