Author Topic: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...  (Read 69394 times)

Edip Yuksel

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2008, 11:44:33 PM »
AYMAN: But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.

EDIP: First, you are distorting the fact. You wish people think that we do not read and appreciate the Quran. To the contrary, we have risked our lives for the message of the Quran, the whole Quran! We appreciate every letter and word of the Quran. So, stop resorting to this cheap propaganda. Appreciation of the numerical structure and a great prophecy of the Quran does not and should not stop one from reading and following the Quran. To the contrary, such a great sign and prophecy compels us to take every letter of the Quran seriously.

Those who read the Quran will know that it mentions Nineteen in the context of its authenticity in a prophetic language. You read it but ignore it!

AYMAN: How about those facts: the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.

EDİP: You are just making up. If you are not then tell us what are the number of letters and words in the Quran. Provide us with your evidence!

As brother Zidane eloquently put: "- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light."

The Quran starts exactly with 19 letters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It has exactly 114 chapters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It talks about hypocrites who cannot understand the number 19, and we learned about it after 18 of your trials!
We discovered 19 in chapter 74 after 18 of your trials!
We learned that the chapter starts with the word al-Muddatthir, that is the Hidden One, just after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that the first complete statement of the same chapter has 19 letters, just after 18 of your trials!
We further learned that the numerical values of those 19 letters equals exactly to 1974, just after 18 of your trials!
We discovered that the juxtaposition of 19 and the chapter number 74 would exactly produce 1974, the time of the discovery, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that multiplying 19 by the chapter number 74 would produce 1406 and that was exactly the number of lunar years between the year of revelation and 1974, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that the root of the name of the discoverer, RaSHaDa, is mentioned exactly 19 times in the Quran, again after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that out of those 19 occurrences the form RaShaD is mentioned twice and they are separated by the only vers in the Quran rejecting the claims of disbelievers regarding finality of messengership. Again, we learned this after 18 of your trials!
We have learned hundreds of signs and Quranic facts, all after 18 of your trials!....


I will not continue debating with you in detail here, since I have already exposed the problems with your argument numerous times in writing and they are posted at 19.org.

Back to the Quran being called Great Reading... You are again covering the whole truth, since the Quran has numerous attributes, one of them being ZIKR and the other being Kitabun Marqum, that is, Numerical Book.. In our upcoming oral debate, the falsehood will be exposed conclusively, by God's will. Wait, and we are too waiting. God is Sari-ul Hisab!
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

ayman

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2008, 09:29:32 AM »
Peace Edip,

AYMAN: But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.
EDIP: First, you are distorting the fact. You wish people think that we do not read and appreciate the Quran. To the contrary, we have risked our lives for the message of the Quran, the whole Quran! We appreciate every letter and word of the Quran. So, stop resorting to this cheap propaganda. Appreciation of the numerical structure and a great prophecy of the Quran does not and should not stop one from reading and following the Quran. To the contrary, such a great sign and prophecy compels us to take every letter of the Quran seriously.

I didn't say that you didn't read the great reading and appreciated it. I said that you appreciate the code MORE. For someone who teaches logic, you should know the difference. I try to choose my words very carefully so you should also try to read them carefully.

In your response, YOU ACTUALLY CONFIRMED WHAT I SAID. You said that it is such codes that compel you to take every letter of the great reading seriously. So without such codes or based on reading alone you wouldn't take the great reading as seriously. So indeed you are confirming that you appreciate the code more than the reading.

Those who read the Quran will know that it mentions Nineteen in the context of its authenticity in a prophetic language. You read it but ignore it!

Come on Edip, where is your professional logic? The first time you read "Nineteen" did you know that it is in the context of the great reading's authenticity? Or did you come to this conclusion after countless trials and errors and the removal of 9:128-129 and then building circular arguments?

AYMAN: How about those facts: the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.
EDİP: You are just making up. If you are not then tell us what are the number of letters and words in the Quran. Provide us with your evidence!

I don't have to provide anything. Since you are not advertizing those obvious trials then I know that RK, you or any of the Code 19 hunters have tried them and failed to get a 19 divisible. The same goes for the following trials, which I know you or RK tried but are mute about because they failed:

Trial 1: Test if the number of words in Chapter 9 without the 2 verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 2: Test if the total number of letters in Chapter 9 without the 2 verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 3: Test if the count of the word GOD in Chapter 9 without the two verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 4: Test if the sum of all the verse numbers where the word GOD occurs in Chapter 9 without the two verses is divisible by 19.
Trial 5: Test if the count of the word "raheem" from the missing Basmalah (Sura 9) to the extra Basmalah (Sura 27) is divisible by 19.
etc... etc...

If you add up all your failures and compare the number of your successes to your failures, you will see that the ratio is 1:18, which is the natural ratio of random occurrences of 19 multiples.

As brother Zidane eloquently put: "- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light."

This is just a typical example of the kind of ignorance that leads people to be fascinated by such numerology. You can't use trial and error in pattern recognition problems without capturing the failed trials and comparing the ratio of success to failure to a specific benchmark. Also, Thomas Edison didn't use trial and error and then hid all his failed trials and claimed that he got a light bulb on the first trial. Also, he didn't really use trial and error. For instance, he didn't try to throw some tungsten at a fire and see if a light bulb would come out the other end. He only varied limited parameters within a systematic method. Also, once he got the successful trial, he went back to the method and refined it and made it repeatable. On the other hand, NONE of the methods of code 19 is repeatable and this is why RK never uses the same method twice. He got 19 divisibles not because there is a pattern but because he was constantly changing the method. He changed the method when he got failed trials using the same method.

The Quran starts exactly with 19 letters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It has exactly 114 chapters, which we discovered after 18 of your trials!
It talks about hypocrites who cannot understand the number 19, and we learned about it after 18 of your trials!
We discovered 19 in chapter 74 after 18 of your trials!
We learned that the chapter starts with the word al-Muddatthir, that is the Hidden One, just after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that the first complete statement of the same chapter has 19 letters, just after 18 of your trials!
We further learned that the numerical values of those 19 letters equals exactly to 1974, just after 18 of your trials!
We discovered that the juxtaposition of 19 and the chapter number 74 would exactly produce 1974, the time of the discovery, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that multiplying 19 by the chapter number 74 would produce 1406 and that was exactly the number of lunar years between the year of revelation and 1974, again after 18 of your trials!
We also discovered that the root of the name of the discoverer, RaSHaDa, is mentioned exactly 19 times in the Quran, again after 18 of your trials!
We also learned that out of those 19 occurrences the form RaShaD is mentioned twice and they are separated by the only vers in the Quran rejecting the claims of disbelievers regarding finality of messengership. Again, we learned this after 18 of your trials!
We have learned hundreds of signs and Quranic facts, all after 18 of your trials!....
I will not continue debating with you in detail here, since I have already exposed the problems with your argument numerous times in writing and they are posted at 19.org.

Are you trying to say that RK and you NEVER had a SINGLE FAILED TRIAL? If so, then clearly, you are lying.

Back to the Quran being called Great Reading... You are again covering the whole truth, since the Quran has numerous attributes, one of them being ZIKR and the other being Kitabun Marqum, that is, Numerical Book.. In our upcoming oral debate, the falsehood will be exposed conclusively, by God's will. Wait, and we are too waiting. God is Sari-ul Hisab!

I look forward to it. :)

Peace,

Ayman

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2008, 10:01:23 AM »
@ Supernaut
peace,
Quote
There is zero evidence that aliens sent us the reading. Only Raelians and pseudo-archaeologists think there's evidence that aliens made the universe and gave us our religions.
Yes but there's zero evidence that they didn't. And here we're only going by what the CODE tells us. Nothing else.
Quote
I think the orderliness and the perfection in the laws of nature preclude the possibility of there being more than one god.
Maybe. But again that is reflecting on the world and it's signs, not the code.

Quote
I know I am, and I believe I'm making an educated and intelligent assumption.
It's actually not that much of an assumption because you are basing that on what you've seen in the world and from what you've read in the book. If let's say you lose all your senses of perception but somehow can still see the code, you cannot logically reach that conclusion.

My point is that the conclusion you are reaching about the Quran being written by God is completely independent of the code. The code has nothing to do with your belief.
We know that the code BY ITSELF has no meaning or purpose. It's like a 0.
Having the code around is like adding 0 to something. You're not adding anything at all.


Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God, and I don't think it even claims that. I think it claims that it was inspired by God. It says that all truth comes from god, which means all truth is divine. As you said, humans are capable of writing the truth so humans are certainly capable of creating something divine.
It's just like the divine attributes. God is all-knowing, all-merciful etc. We can all exhibit those divine qualities. We can gain knowledge, we can have mercy. We can also create a message with truth in it.
There is nothing supernatural about this book. It's just a book. We're supposed to read it and get whatever we can out of it.

What God HAS written is the universe. The books are written by men. The books help us because they spare us the difficulty of figuring things out by ourselves and instills good values within us. But we can skip the books if we want and go straight to the source - God's creation. Like Abraham did. We can go through trial and error like him and figure out the truth.
The truth is only useful when we understand it and we can use it. The code doesn't help us do any of that. In my view of things there is no need to look for such a code.
And I use the term "god" loosely because I'm not sure what God is or if there even is a God.
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2008, 10:53:07 AM »

Bahman

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2008, 12:25:56 PM »
Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God,
Peace:
What makes you sure this one is not authored by God?
Peace

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2008, 02:21:09 PM »
Peace Ayman,

Why do you knowlying post deception such as above?


Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1..........75..........76..........76..........
2..........1024..........1026..........1026..........
3..........390..........393....................393
4..........2..........6..........6..........
5..........52..........57....................57
6..........51..........57....................57
7..........402..........409....................409
8..........5..........13....................13
9..........29..........38..........38..........
10..........9..........19....................19
11..........9..........20..........20..........
12..........135..........147....................147
13..........215..........228..........228..........
14..........4..........18..........18..........
15..........23..........38..........38..........
16..........20..........36..........36..........
17..........21..........38..........38..........
18..........10..........28..........28..........
19..........76..........95....................95
20..........177..........197....................197
21..........36..........57....................57
22..........28..........50..........50..........
23..........110..........133....................133
24..........10..........34..........34..........
25..........7..........32..........32..........
26..........443..........469....................469
27..........107..........134..........134..........
28..........104..........132..........132..........
29..........69..........98..........98..........
30..........58..........88..........88..........
31..........2..........33....................33
32..........18..........50..........50..........
33..........63..........96..........96..........
34..........80..........114..........114..........
35..........25..........60..........60..........
36..........21..........57....................57
37..........86..........123....................123
38..........76..........114..........114..........
39..........81..........120..........120..........
40..........95..........135....................135
41..........62..........103....................103
42..........33..........75....................75
43..........55..........98..........98..........
44..........3..........47....................47
45..........71..........116..........116..........
46..........85..........131....................131
47..........46..........93....................93
48..........9..........57....................57
49..........8..........57....................57
50..........37..........87....................87
51..........64..........115....................115
52..........65..........117....................117
53..........80..........133....................133
54..........17..........71....................71
55..........96..........151....................151
56..........68..........124..........124..........
57..........57..........114..........114..........

1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349



By changing chapter 9 to have only 29 verses...

Surah   #Verses       S+V    57 Even   57 Odd    

1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........123..........134..........134...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........
                     
1-57...................6657.....3026......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half

6657 3026 3631 IS NOT divisible by 19 with remainder = 18

Neither are:

6657 3631 3026
3631 3026 6657
3631 6657 3026
3026 3631 6657
3026 6657 3631

Although I'm sure you knew that already.

Peace



Supernaut

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2008, 03:21:41 PM »
Peace,

Yes but there's zero evidence that they didn't.

That is a logical fallacy.

And here we're only going by what the CODE tells us. Nothing else.

I agree that a code in a book that had nonsense in it would be meaningless, but if the reading - which I have faith is a lucid scripture - had a code, the code would be meaningful.

Maybe. But again that is reflecting on the world and it's signs, not the code.

True.

It's actually not that much of an assumption because you are basing that on what you've seen in the world and from what you've read in the book. If let's say you lose all your senses of perception but somehow can still see the code, you cannot logically reach that conclusion.

That is true, but a creature that could appreciate the signs in the universe and conclude that a god exists from them would also be able to appreciate a code in the reading if such a code existed.

My point is that the conclusion you are reaching about the Quran being written by God is completely independent of the code. The code has nothing to do with your belief.

Well it did before because it impressed me. Anyway, lets assume the reading did have a superhuman code. Such a code would help some people believe because these people would see the complexity and inimitability of it as evidence of divine authorship.

We know that the code BY ITSELF has no meaning or purpose. It's like a 0.
Having the code around is like adding 0 to something. You're not adding anything at all.

I think a superhuman code in the reading would be part and parcel of it. It wouldn't exist independent of the reading because then it wouldn't be the reading's code.

Now my belief of the Quran is that it wasn't written by God, and I don't think it even claims that.

No, I think it does (10:37, 4:82, 2:99, 3:3, 21:10 and many, many more verses). However, the deity didn't write the reading (6:7), the way it engraved the Torah on tablets (7:144-145), and I think the reason why the deity wrote the Torah down for Moses and Aaron and their people is that they didn't have the time or resources to write it down themselves, while Mohamed and his followers did.

I think it claims that it was inspired by God. It says that all truth comes from god, which means all truth is divine.

The deity tells us that It "sent down" the reading, but that It didn't write it down. It was Gabriel who transmitted the reading to Mohamed by the deity's permission (16:102).

As you said, humans are capable of writing the truth so humans are certainly capable of creating something divine.

Something divine would have to be entirely free of contradictions and nonsense, and I have faith the reading is. The deity tells us the reading has no contradictions in it in 4:82.

It's just like the divine attributes. God is all-knowing, all-merciful etc. We can all exhibit those divine qualities.

Be all-knowing, the most merciful and the ever merciful? We can only come close to knowing everything and it'd be very exhausting to be all-merciful all the time. We're humans. Our knowledge is limited and we lose our tempers very often.

We can gain knowledge, we can have mercy. We can also create a message with truth in it.

Yes, but the deity's better at being merciful and creating good messages (I just imagined the deity typing a mobile phone text message :P) and the deity knows everything.

There is nothing supernatural about this book. It's just a book. We're supposed to read it and get whatever we can out of it.

No, but I have faith that it doesn't have contradictions in it and that it's free of errors. That's not typical of books written by humans. Also, some of its content couldn't have been written during Mohamed's time.

What God HAS written is the universe. The books are written by men.

But sent down by the deity.

The books help us because they spare us the difficulty of figuring things out by ourselves and instills good values within us. But we can skip the books if we want and go straight to the source - God's creation. Like Abraham did. We can go through trial and error like him and figure out the truth.

I agree.

The truth is only useful when we understand it and we can use it. The code doesn't help us do any of that. In my view of things there is no need to look for such a code.

But a code would help us accept the truth.

ayman

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2008, 04:13:36 PM »
Peace Nun,

Why do you knowlying post deception such as above?

Hey, all I did was use your nonsensical Checksum method. You knowingly posted your deception first. At least I made it clear that I was joking.

By changing chapter 9 to have only 29 verses...

But I didn't only change Chapter 9. I changed all chapters and still got the same exact Checksum as you did. Just paste my calculations in Excel or something. In fact, you don't even need to do that. Just take out 100 verses from Chapter 9 and add them to any other even chapter such as Chapter 11. So now Chapter 9 has 29 verses while Chapter 11 has 223 new verses and your Checksum is EXACTLY the same.

Here, I will use your table below:

Surah   #Verses       S+V    57 Even   57 Odd    

1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........29..........38..........38...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........223..........234..........234...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........

1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 IS divisible by 19 with remainder = 0
                  
Because the 100 real verses taken out from Chapter 9 is compensated by the new 100 false verses added to chapter 11, we have the same exact Checksum. In fact, you can mess up ALL the chapters of the great reading this way and not just two chapters and in the process achieve a more symmetric, powerful and impressive Code 19 as I easily demonstrated in about 10 minutes.
   
If you were not joking then your statement "even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart" is not just false, it is probably the dumbest thing I heard on the subject of Code 19 (and believe me, over the years, I heard lots of dumb things on this subject). I hope that you were joking or this was a momentary lapse of reason and you will humbly see the truth and not continue down this slippery slope. I am sorry to be so hard on you but this is so obvious that at this stage you are really in no position to argue.

Peace,

Ayman

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2008, 04:19:16 PM »
Peace Supernaut

I never make logical fallacies. Never!

As long as you don't know who sent something to you, you have a host of possible senders. Aliens could be one of them. That's what I meant.
Anyway that's not important anymore...

So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.
There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.

I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith. Those holes shouldn't be there.
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No, but I have faith that it doesn't have contradictions in it and that it's free of errors. That's not typical of books written by humans. Also, some of its content couldn't have been written during Mohamed's time.
I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have. In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.
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Well it did before because it impressed me. Anyway, lets assume the reading did have a superhuman code. Such a code would help some people believe because these people would see the complexity and inimitability of it as evidence of divine authorship.
If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false. You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood. It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. :! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.
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Be all-knowing, the most merciful and the ever merciful? We can only come close to knowing everything and it'd be very exhausting to be all-merciful all the time. We're humans. Our knowledge is limited and we lose our tempers very often.
Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws.
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

Supernaut

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2008, 08:52:12 PM »
Peace Lobster,

So what I understand of what you're saying is that the code depends on the scripture being true. So first you have to BELIEVE in it, and then the code is there just in case your faith wavers a bit.
But here's the thing, if you verify something, and KNOW it beyond doubt to be true, then you don't need a code anymore. In fact needing a code to believe in the truth of something means that your belief isn't 100%, that there is doubt.

Believers are humans so their faith does waver. Even the reading acknowledges that believers do become unsure of their faith (2:260 and 2:214). It's unreasonable to claim that a believer's faith will always be 100% sure.

There is no room for doubt. You either know something or you don't. If you know, then there's no point to the code. I know the sky is blue. Now a code telling me that that statement is true wouldn't add anything.

Yes, but what if you had reason, albeit not so good, to doubt what you were very sure of? You can't deny that every intelligent and sceptical human does doubt what they believe in from time to time. Only when we doubt what we know and question our faith do we actually learn more about it and develop a better understanding of what we already know about it.

I have a feeling that people are using this code to fill up the empty spaces, the holes in their faith.

Or they could just be using it to augment their faith.

Those holes shouldn't be there.I believe the quran does have some errors. And I really don't buy the "couldn't have been written during Muhammad's time" because we don't know how much knowledge those people did or didn't have.

We can have a very good estimate judging by what they left behind, and what the civilizations that preceded them left them. I believe that the Arabs might've known that the earth was round but they couldn't have known that the universe began as a tiny singularity that is expanding until the reading told them this in 21:30 and 51:47.

In fact I think ancient people knew far more than people today believe they did.

I agree.

If something is true, then it's true. The truth is clear from falsehood, isn't it? If it's not true, then the only other option is that it must be false.

Our belief in something and our doubts in that belief have zero bearing on the reality of that thing. Suppose I doubted that the sky is blue, now my doubt in my belief that the sky is blue wouldn't mean that the sky isn't blue.

You should have complete faith in the truth and you should completely reject falsehood.

Well I pray I reach such a stage in an intelligent way. Many people believe in things because they suppress their reason. Sunnis and Shias assuage their doubts with obsessive-compulsive rituals, but a true muslim would clear away most of their doubts by learning, and because it's not possible to learn everything, a true muslim would always strive to improve their understanding by learning more.

It doesn't matter where the truth comes from or whether it comes with a free code. You either know something or you don't know. It's like an on and off switch. :! sort of like that. A code can't make the truth truther.

I'm sorry, but I think that's a very simplistic thing to say. Humans are certainly not like on and off switches; they are far more complex.

Yes. We can never be perfect. God is like a perfect ideal that we can all aspire to but can never reach. It's like a limit (if you're a calculus nerd).
the quran I believe is written by men because even if it doesn't have contradictions, it certainly has flaws.

I have faith (blind faith so far) that the reading has no flaws in it. I pray I'll be able to replace blind faith with something much better in the future.