Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

[Zidane]

Greetings of peace,

- The code shows us that there are patterns throughout the quran - and that is fact. For example: http://19.org/index.php?id=14,31,0,0,1,0

(I myself, don't fully agree with "discoveries" that use alphabet sequence/numbering system, since this could be changed/chosen by people who do the test to make the end result divisible. However, there are many other purely scripture related patterns discovered that are not related to this, as some are shown in Edip's article in the link above.)

The counting of 19 is deemed by 74:31 as ONLY a "fitna", in other words an attractive temptation to people who are attracted to it (you know who they are).

- The seeing of the pattern benefits as "and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt"  (74:31)

- If it was "fitna", it can't logically increase your faith nor remove your doubt.

- It "increases" faith in the sense that any normal reading/writing by humans would not have such patterns.

How about those facts: the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.

- The ratio of trail and errors until finding of each 19 related fact doesn't show that the pattern is false in the same way that the ratio of Thomas Edison's  trial and error doesn't show that Tungsten doesn't work - it worked perfectly and was a great discovery. It is still fact that there are patterns, same as the light bulb still emits light.

There are many more theories on logic and how the brain works that don't have 19 of anything. Again, if you look in any random sample, the frequency of 19 divisibles is going to be 1 out of 19. It is not my problem that you are obsessed with the 1 and therefore never see or mention the other 18.

- This is not related to the pattern in the scripture.

The ignorant majority in fact believes in numerology codes when they see it like mosquitos attracted to a bug zapper. Many Sunnis believe in Code 19 like many Christians and Jews believe in the Bible Code and both believe in the significance and relevance of such codes as signs and in sensationalized TV documentaries that cater to the ignorants. This is why you will never find a decent academic journal publishing such crap.

Again, the significance is "and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt"  (74:31).

The code is not to make people beleive blindly in whatever was translated (as what people suggest in such ducumentaries), and you can't see the truth when believing blindly.

The code just makes more confidence that the text is preserved in some way. And, makes you have more confident that there are ways to infer a lot of truth/understanding from it - if God so wills.

Indeed, the god doesn't say that he counted everything in multiples of 19 as you imagine. In fact, I am certain that the way the god counts things is not even the same as the way humans count. I am sure that he doesn't need to use a base-10 system or a cumbersome Abjad system like that of Code 19.

God also didn't say that using tungsten would work for the bulb, but it is fact - under God's laws - that it works.

Humans can learn and seek the facts/patterns in God's laws - this is demonstrated in science, For example in Physics: Newton's discovery "F=ma" shows how God's system works related to force, mass and acceleration.

In the same way, it is not said and not true that EVERYTHING is multiple of 19. It is multiple of 19 in relation to some topics, same as F=ma for certain topics only. Same as the bulb worked with certain metals only.

1. How are Matres Lectionis used in the great reading?
2. Why are the Arabic letters which don't have an equivalent in the Hebrew alphabet relegated to the end of the Abjad system?
3. Conventional letter orders, which have to be memorized, are typical of school-taught literacy. The order is transmitted systematically and universally in formal teaching. This is what makes them useable as a numbering system in Greek and Hebrew. How was this possible in the case of the Arabian dialects which were not taught in school prior to the revelation of the great reading?

(I myself, don't fully agree with "discoveries" that use alphabet sequence/numbering system, since this could be changed/chosen by people who do the test to make the end result divisible. There are many other patterns discovered that are not related to this, as shown in Edip's article in the link above.)

I see clear patterns in the many other purely scripture-based facts.


Peace,
Zidane.

[Supernaut]

It could be. But it cannot prove that it was written by God. Or that it was written by a benevolent creature/being.

I disagree because a code that would rule out human authorship would leave us with just one intelligent alternative: the deity.

[Lobster]

I disagree because a code that would rule out human authorship would leave us with just one intelligent alternative: the deity.

Really? What about the possibility of intelligent life beyond our planet? What about Gods that are not benevolent? There are infinite possibilities.
You are making an assumption that the only thing that can exist that is more intelligent than us is THE God the quran describes.

I don't think there is a code, but if there was, and if it really is beyond the scope of humans, then it only proves that it is created by something more intelligent than us. That's it. Anything else is just an assumption.

To make the conclusion that it is written by a benevolent, all-loving God or whatever, you have to READ it and judge it by the content.
If the content is true, then it doesn't matter if there is a code or not, people should believe in it. So really the code has no purpose.

[IronSky]

Peace to all,


Lobster, if their is a code in the Quran beyond our intelligence, then it would prove exactly what it claims,  it must be intelligent enough to embed the code, which would prove its beyond our current level of intelligence, and if this is true, why would it claim that it is God, and that their is only one God,  this must be true also , and it must also be benevolent because that is exactly what it claims to be in the Quran,  and whatever this omniscient being is it must be the only one, since it claims it is the only one, and if this werent true then we would have many other similar books with different claims to being an all powerful God in contrast to the one GOd,  so where are these other books sent to us by another omniscient being that says the God of the Quran is wrong,  and if it is just some intelligent alien then why does this divine being know us as humans and what we feel and think better than we even know ourselves,  whoever this being is it seems to be closer to me than my jugular vein, and knows our hearts and thoughts better than all of us together could ever achieve, pretty good for a smart alien, somehow he seems to be more like a creator of us to know us so well.

Kurt

[Lobster]

Peace to all,


Lobster, if their is a code in the Quran beyond our intelligence, then it would prove exactly what it claims,  it must be intelligent enough to embed the code, which would prove its beyond our current level of intelligence, and if this is true, why would it claim that it is God, and that their is only one God,  this must be true also , and it must also be benevolent because that is exactly what it claims to be in the Quran,  and whatever this omniscient being is it must be the only one, since it claims it is the only one, and if this werent true then we would have many other similar books with different claims to being an all powerful God in contrast to the one GOd,  so where are these other books sent to us by another omniscient being that says the God of the Quran is wrong,  and if it is just some intelligent alien then why does this divine being know us as humans and what we feel and think better than we even know ourselves,  whoever this being is it seems to be closer to me than my jugular vein, and knows our hearts and thoughts better than all of us together could ever achieve, pretty good for a smart alien, somehow he seems to be more like a creator of us to know us so well.

Kurt

Peace Kurt,

Well there is something called LYING.
But you proved my point. You have come to the conclusion that these claims must be true because of the content. You say that it knows us better than ourselves. That's an observation based on careful reading - not on counting numbers.

The fact is that if there are beings out there who are more intelligent than us other than god, and there CAN be, then there also CAN be a book which contains such a code but what is says is utter crap.

In the end, it all comes down to reading the words, not counting numbers and looking for patterns.

[Supernaut]

Really? What about the possibility of intelligent life beyond our planet?

There is zero evidence that aliens sent us the reading. Only Raelians and pseudo-archaeologists think there's evidence that aliens made the universe and gave us our religions.

What about Gods that are not benevolent? There are infinite possibilities.

I think the orderliness and the perfection in the laws of nature preclude the possibility of there being more than one god.

You are making an assumption that the only thing that can exist that is more intelligent than us is THE God the quran describes.

I know I am, and I believe I'm making an educated and intelligent assumption.

I don't think there is a code, but if there was, and if it really is beyond the scope of humans, then it only proves that it is created by something more intelligent than us. That's it. Anything else is just an assumption.

I think the one assumption I'm making is better than all other possible assumptions. I could be wrong though.

To make the conclusion that it is written by a benevolent, all-loving God or whatever, you have to READ it and judge it by the content.

I agree.

If the content is true, then it doesn't matter if there is a code or not, people should believe in it. So really the code has no purpose.

The content may be true, but even humans are capable of producing truthful content. I believe there is evidence of divine authorship in the reading apart from a code that probably doesn't exist, but I think a code in the reading would go a long way in proving the deity's claim that the reading couldn't possibly be written by humans which would make the code very useful indeed.

[Bahman]

Salaam Nun,

Good to see you back; I was wondering where you?d disappeared to. Thank God you got treated in time and I hope you are feeling fine now. Now you will have to make up for your missed fast in the shorter winter days  .
I see you have done your usual calculations which is beyond me, as last I did such long and extensive calculations was when I had to tutor my daughter.
I simply see code 19 as one sign among many, and glorify the Lord Who balances everything in the right proportions. I do not see it as a the driving force, which should govern the Qur?an verses. What are your views about it?

Some time back I saw a very good series of programmes on TV, mainly to do with nature around us and from space to earth. In that series I watched one programme featuring the mathematical code in nature around us.
They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us I can?t remember if it was about code 19,  but it was fascinating. Recently I have seen few a more U tube video,  and heard about someone call Rushid who has done a translation of the Qur'an. If he has done good he will find his reward with God other than that I do not see a reason to pay much attention to the followers of code 19.

Peace

[Bahman]

Peace --

It?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical. This includes ALL verses in surah 9.

The trial is on those who impose what words should add up to 19, eliminating verses to make themselves into false messengers, extrapolating nonsense outside the book to mislead people, etc...

19 is only a prime number/checksum as is 12791. The structure/symmetry is one proof amongst many...


Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd

1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................203

9..........129..........138..........138...........

110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........

6555.......6236....12791.......6236.....6555

6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989

6555 = 19 x 345
114 = 19 x 6
57 = 19 x 3

Here is the entire structure in the link below...

Go figure...893 = 19 x 47

Peace
Hope you feel good GW
We have discussed it here but have you
had achance look this new discovery one pattern with 26138 digits interlocks whole book
Peace

[Bahman]

Peace to all,


Lobster, if their is a code in the Quran beyond our intelligence, then it would prove exactly what it claims,  it must be intelligent enough to embed the code, which would prove its beyond our current level of intelligence, and if this is true, why would it claim that it is God, and that their is only one God,  this must be true also , and it must also be benevolent because that is exactly what it claims to be in the Quran,  and whatever this omniscient being is it must be the only one, since it claims it is the only one, and if this werent true then we would have many other similar books with different claims to being an all powerful God in contrast to the one GOd,  so where are these other books sent to us by another omniscient being that says the God of the Quran is wrong,  and if it is just some intelligent alien then why does this divine being know us as humans and what we feel and think better than we even know ourselves,  whoever this being is it seems to be closer to me than my jugular vein, and knows our hearts and thoughts better than all of us together could ever achieve, pretty good for a smart alien, somehow he seems to be more like a creator of us to know us so well.

Kurt

Peace

[ayman]

Peace Nun, everyone,

As Nun says, ?it?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical?. The Quran even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart and uses checksums same as computer systems to ensure the message arrives intact, in order, and uncorrupted with exactly 114 chapters and 6236 verses. Nun?s checksum method is described here:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16442.msg175363#msg175363

Nineteen years after the Prophet's death, some scribes injected false verses at the end of Sura 9, the last sura revealed in Medina. The evidence presented here incontrovertibly removes these human injections, restores the Quran to its pristine purity, and illustrates a major funtion of the Quran's mathematical code, namely, to protect the Quran from the slightest tampering or even major tampering. Surah 9 should include only 29 verses. Verses 30 to 129 were added 19 years after the prophet?s death. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered, as evidenced by his protest which is documented in many classic references (classic references agree with the code and therefore are not to be confused with classic satanic Hadiths references):

`Ali was asked: "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."

The mischievous scribes seeing that the Quran was getting heavier, decided to remove verses to compensate for the ones they added and to balance things out. Unfortunately, because ?Ali couldn?t go out of his house in his pajamas to stop them as evidenced by the above classic reference, 19 months later, the scribes were going crazy and adding and deleting verses all over the place. Pretty soon, none of chapters remained intact. For example, Surah 2 should have 1024 verses according to Nun?s checksum method and they reduced it to 286, while chapter 4 should only have 2 verses and so on. Fortunately, the mischievous scribes did not know that we now have Nun?s foolproof checksum method that can?t be replicated by man or machine. Move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart. As Nun said, the checksum method proves the structure/symmetry of the uncorrupted Quran as we see below:

60 Even verses = 30 even-even + 30 odd-even   
54 Odd verses = 27 odd-odd + 27 even-odd   

Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd
1..........75..........76..........76..........
2..........1024..........1026..........1026..........
3..........390..........393....................393
4..........2..........6..........6..........
5..........52..........57....................57
6..........51..........57....................57
7..........402..........409....................409
8..........5..........13....................13
9..........29..........38..........38..........
10..........9..........19....................19
11..........9..........20..........20..........
12..........135..........147....................147
13..........215..........228..........228..........
14..........4..........18..........18..........
15..........23..........38..........38..........
16..........20..........36..........36..........
17..........21..........38..........38..........
18..........10..........28..........28..........
19..........76..........95....................95
20..........177..........197....................197
21..........36..........57....................57
22..........28..........50..........50..........
23..........110..........133....................133
24..........10..........34..........34..........
25..........7..........32..........32..........
26..........443..........469....................469
27..........107..........134..........134..........
28..........104..........132..........132..........
29..........69..........98..........98..........
30..........58..........88..........88..........
31..........2..........33....................33
32..........18..........50..........50..........
33..........63..........96..........96..........
34..........80..........114..........114..........
35..........25..........60..........60..........
36..........21..........57....................57
37..........86..........123....................123
38..........76..........114..........114..........
39..........81..........120..........120..........
40..........95..........135....................135
41..........62..........103....................103
42..........33..........75....................75
43..........55..........98..........98..........
44..........3..........47....................47
45..........71..........116..........116..........
46..........85..........131....................131
47..........46..........93....................93
48..........9..........57....................57
49..........8..........57....................57
50..........37..........87....................87
51..........64..........115....................115
52..........65..........117....................117
53..........80..........133....................133
54..........17..........71....................71
55..........96..........151....................151
56..........68..........124..........124..........
57..........57..........114..........114..........

1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349

58..........18..........76..........76..........
59..........74..........133....................133
60..........13..........73....................73
61..........14..........75....................75
62..........71..........133....................133
63..........13..........76..........76..........
64..........20..........84..........84..........
65..........12..........77....................77
66..........10..........76..........76..........
67..........28..........95....................95
68..........54..........122..........122..........
69..........2..........71....................71
70..........44..........114..........114..........
71..........30..........101....................101
72..........42..........114..........114..........
73..........20..........93....................93
74..........40..........114..........114..........
75..........10..........85....................85
76..........19..........95....................95
77..........20..........97....................97
78..........36..........114..........114..........
79..........58..........137....................137
80..........34..........114..........114..........
81..........13..........94..........94..........
82..........23..........105....................105
83..........34..........117....................117
84..........23..........107....................107
85..........26..........111....................111
86..........11..........97....................97
87..........21..........108..........108..........
88..........24..........112..........112..........
89..........26..........115....................115
90..........12..........102..........102..........
91..........23..........114..........114..........
92..........19..........111....................111
93..........21..........114..........114..........
94..........2..........96..........96..........
95..........38..........133....................133
96..........7..........103....................103
97..........1..........98..........98..........
98..........10..........108..........108..........
99..........2..........101....................101
100..........1..........101....................101
101..........9..........110..........110..........
102..........10..........112..........112..........
103..........1..........104..........104..........
104..........1..........105....................105
105..........9..........114..........114..........
106..........8..........114..........114..........
107..........1..........108..........108..........
108..........1..........109....................109
109..........2..........111....................111
110..........23..........133....................133
111..........1..........112..........112..........
112..........6..........118..........118..........
113..........3..........116..........116..........
114..........38..........152..........152..........

58-114............6034.......3110.......2924 <-------- middle checksum 2nd half
3110  6034  2924 = 19 x 16371596996

Totals 1-114

6555.......6236.....12791...6236.....6555 <-------- last checksum totals 

6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989

6555 = 19 x 345

12791 is a prime number as is 19!

Not only did Nun?s checksum method restore the structure/symmetry of the Quran, it pointed out some additional miraculous properties. For example, please note that the chapters marked in bold when restored are divisible by 19. Even more astonishing is the fact that the number of chapters divided by 19 within each symmetric checksum grouping is also 19!

In fact, put the checksums side by side and the beautiful inimitable superhuman symmetry becomes apparent:

Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd 19 Surah#.......... Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd 19 Surah#
1..........75..........76..........76....................1....................58..........18..........76..........76....................58
2..........1024..........1026..........1026....................2....................59..........74..........133....................133..........59
3..........390..........393....................393.......... -....................60..........13..........73....................73.......... -
4..........2..........6..........6.................... -....................61..........14..........75....................75.......... -
5..........52..........57....................57..........5....................62..........71..........133....................133..........62
6..........51..........57....................57..........6....................63..........13..........76..........76....................63
7..........402..........409....................409.......... -....................64..........20..........84..........84.................... -
8..........5..........13....................13.......... -....................65..........12..........77....................77.......... -
9..........29..........38..........38....................9....................66..........10..........76..........76....................66
10..........9..........19....................19..........10....................67..........28..........95....................95..........67
11..........9..........20..........20.................... -....................68..........54..........122..........122.................... -
12..........135..........147....................147.......... -....................69..........2..........71....................71.......... -
13..........215..........228..........228....................13....................70..........44..........114..........114....................70
14..........4..........18..........18.................... -....................71..........30..........101....................101.......... -
15..........23..........38..........38....................15....................72..........42..........114..........114....................72
16..........20..........36..........36.................... -....................73..........20..........93....................93.......... -
17..........21..........38..........38....................17....................74..........40..........114..........114....................74
18..........10..........28..........28.................... -....................75..........10..........85....................85.......... -
19..........76..........95....................95..........19....................76..........19..........95....................95..........76
20..........177..........197....................197.......... -....................77..........20..........97....................97.......... -
21..........36..........57....................57..........21....................78..........36..........114..........114....................78
22..........28..........50..........50.................... -....................79..........58..........137....................137.......... -
23..........110..........133....................133..........23....................80..........34..........114..........114....................80
24..........10..........34..........34.................... -....................81..........13..........94..........94.................... -
25..........7..........32..........32.................... -....................82..........23..........105....................105.......... -
26..........443..........469....................469.......... -....................83..........34..........117....................117.......... -
27..........107..........134..........134.................... -....................84..........23..........107....................107.......... -
28..........104..........132..........132.................... -....................85..........26..........111....................111.......... -
29..........69..........98..........98.................... -....................86..........11..........97....................97.......... -
30..........58..........88..........88.................... -....................87..........21..........108..........108.................... -
31..........2..........33....................33.......... -....................88..........24..........112..........112.................... -
32..........18..........50..........50.................... -....................89..........26..........115....................115.......... -
33..........63..........96..........96.................... -....................90..........12..........102..........102.................... -
34..........80..........114..........114....................34....................91..........23..........114..........114....................91
35..........25..........60..........60.................... -....................92..........19..........111....................111.......... -
36..........21..........57....................57..........36....................93..........21..........114..........114....................93
37..........86..........123....................123.......... -....................94..........2..........96..........96.................... -
38..........76..........114..........114....................38....................95..........38..........133....................133..........95
39..........81..........120..........120.................... -....................96..........7..........103....................103.......... -
40..........95..........135....................135.......... -....................97..........1..........98..........98.................... -
41..........62..........103....................103.......... -....................98..........10..........108..........108.................... -
42..........33..........75....................75.......... -....................99..........2..........101....................101.......... -
43..........55..........98..........98.................... -....................100..........1..........101....................101.......... -
44..........3..........47....................47.......... -....................101..........9..........110..........110.................... -
45..........71..........116..........116.................... -....................102..........10..........112..........112.................... -
46..........85..........131....................131.......... -....................103..........1..........104..........104.................... -
47..........46..........93....................93.......... -....................104..........1..........105....................105.......... -
48..........9..........57....................57..........48....................105..........9..........114..........114....................105
49..........8..........57....................57..........49....................106..........8..........114..........114....................106
50..........37..........87....................87.......... -....................107..........1..........108..........108.................... -
51..........64..........115....................115.......... -....................108..........1..........109....................109.......... -
52..........65..........117....................117.......... -....................109..........2..........111....................111.......... -
53..........80..........133....................133..........53....................110..........23..........133....................133..........110
54..........17..........71....................71.......... -....................111..........1..........112..........112.................... -
55..........96..........151....................151.......... -....................112..........6..........118..........118.................... -
56..........68..........124..........124.................... -....................113..........3..........116..........116.................... -
57..........57..........114..........114....................57....................114..........38..........152..........152....................114

1-57 Total number of chapters divisible by 19 = 19

58-114 Total number of chapters divisible by 19 = 19

Totals 1-114  19 +19 = 38 = 19x2

Even more amazing is the fact that when you add the chapter numbers of the 19 divisible chapters for each checksum group the result is also 19 divisible:

1-57
1+2+5+6+9+10+13+15+17+19+21+23+34+36+38+48+49+53+57= 456 = 19 x 24

58-114
58+59+62+63+66+67+70+72+74+76+78+80+91+93+95+105+106+110+114 = 1539 = 19 x 81

Totals 1-114

1+2+5+6+9+......+106+110+114 = 1995 = 19 x 105

So the symmetry is not only in the Checksum but also in the chapters divisible by 19 and the total of the chapter numbers in each symmetric group of checksum.

Now instead of adding the chapter numbers and dividing by 19, place the chapter number totals in a checksum as Nun did above. The result is also a multiple of 19!

456 1539 1995 = 19 x 2400810105

In fact, order the checksum of the totals any way you want and the result will always be 19 divisible!

1995 456 1539 = 19 x 1050240081

1539 1995 456 = 19 x 810105024

1995 1539 456 = 19 x 1050081024

456 1995 1539 = 19 x 2401050081

456 1539 1995 = 19 x 2400810105

1539 456 1995 = 19 x 810240105

Again, move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart. Simple to understand, impossible to imitate.

As proven by the physical evidence above, such mathematical composition is far beyond human capabilities. The slightest violation of God's Final Testament is destined to stand out in glaring disharmony. As Nun said, move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart.

The above code would rule out human authorship because it is beyond our intelligence (keep in mind though that the bar for intelligence is set pretty low based on how easily the majority of people here are attracted and mesmerized by such ?codes? and accordingly believe in their significance and relevance as signs).

In summary, if such codes prove they are beyond us and our current level of earthly intelligence, then they must be made by some pretty dumb aliens.



But seriously, people forget about codes and instead read and get a life. It is called the great reading and not the great counting for a reason. It is pathetic to see people whose belief in the great reading is so low that they are more in awe about such numerology than about anything that they ever read in it.

Peace,

Ayman