Author Topic: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...  (Read 69395 times)

ayman

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2008, 11:48:10 AM »
Peace Edip,

If the Quran is God's word, and if the same Quran contains a verse "On it Nineteen" and explains the its role in powerful words: to distinguish the acknowledging people from hypocrites and ingrates, and distinguish the progressives from the regressive ones, then it is beyond me to understand those who deem it irrelevant or unimportant.

The counting of 19 is deemed by 74:31 as ONLY a "fitna", in other words an attractive temptation to people who are attracted to it (you know who they are).

Especially, after learning that the first and the most repeated verse of the Quran has exactly 19 letters and the number of chapters in the Quran 114 too is multiple of this number, and many more simple facts that can be easily verified and many complex facts that can be studied.
Just these facts alone should be sufficient for any reasonable person to stop and reflect. However, the very diverse reaction people have against this code itself is a fulfillment of the prophecy.

How about those facts: the number of letters in the great reading is not a multiple of 19 and the number of words in the great reading too is not a multiple of 19. In fact, I guarantee that for every 1 of the so called facts that you advertize there are 18 facts that are not multiples of 19. All you are doing is using mindless trial and error and touting successful trials while hiding failed trials. You know that what I am saying is true. If you disagree then please be honest and share your failed trials so that we can see the ratio.

You cannot escape from it. In fact, 19 is stamped in your brains. Our brains work on EXACTLY on 19 Rules of Inference. The list of this 19 Rules is on the cover of America's most popular logic textbook, which I too use in my symbolic logic classes.

There are many more theories on logic and how the brain works that don't have 19 of anything. Again, if you look in any random sample, the frequency of 19 divisibles is going to be 1 out of 19. It is not my problem that you are obsessed with the 1 and therefore never see or mention the other 18.

Whenever I challenge those who ignorantly reject and mock this great sign, by claiming that they already believe in the Quran, I learn that their faith is also based on a number. Yet, the only number that is being rejected by the very Quran: The number of people around them! They ignore the divinely designed numerical structure of the Quran, and yet they follow the crowd for their guidance.

The ignorant majority in fact believes in numerology codes when they see it like mosquitos attracted to a bug zapper. Many Sunnis believe in Code 19 like many Christians and Jews believe in the Bible Code and both believe in the significance and relevance of such codes as signs and in sensationalized TV documentaries that cater to the ignorants. This is why you will never find a decent academic journal publishing such crap.

"God has counted everything in numbers!" (72:28).

Indeed, the god doesn't say that he counted everything in multiples of 19 as you imagine. In fact, I am certain that the way the god counts things is not even the same as the way humans count. I am sure that he doesn't need to use a base-10 system or a cumbersome Abjad system like that of Code 19.

Oral debate inshallah will help those who are sincerely seeking the truth of the matter. I have no hope for those who are well described by:
7:146 I will divert from My signs those who are arrogant on earth unjustly, and if they see every sign they do not acknowledge it, and if they see the path of guidance they do not take it as a path; and if they see the path of straying, they take it as a path. That is because they have denied Our signs and were heedless of them.

Indeed, they don't see any signs because they are only attracted to "fitna"/attractive temptations. The Greek pagans who invented your Gematria did the same exact thing before you.

Edip, instead of wasting your time on useless rhetoric, you should start to document the failed trials that Dr. Khalifa and you had during your trial and error searches for the Code. You should also try to translate 74:31 in a believable way that doesn't mess up the clear cause and effect relationship in the passage. Finally, you should ponder on the following questions so that you don't get in trouble if I decide to ask you about them during the debate:

1. How are Matres Lectionis used in the great reading?
2. Why are the Arabic letters which don't have an equivalent in the Hebrew alphabet relegated to the end of the Abjad system?
3. Conventional letter orders, which have to be memorized, are typical of school-taught literacy. The order is transmitted systematically and universally in formal teaching. This is what makes them useable as a numbering system in Greek and Hebrew. How was this possible in the case of the Arabian dialects which were not taught in school prior to the revelation of the great reading?

Peace,

Ayman

Edip Yuksel

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2008, 01:24:53 PM »
Salaam dc2, This is what it says on top of this forum:  About us: a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran. As a result of a discussion you learn and contribute,  where as the debate it?s about two parties, set in their ways, not budging from their stand point. This dispute is more like two US presidential hopefuls trying to win voters. :peace:

Dear Farida, what about you?
What about your glass house(s)?
Or What about your iron house(s)?
Are you "set in your own ways?"

If you are "set in your own ways," then according to your own logic you are not worth listening; fix yourself first.

If you are NOT "set in your own ways," then, this debate is for you; those who do not "set in their own ways" should listen both parties who are "set in their own ways" to find out a way to settle or justify their own unsettled position.

Please before jumping on the keyboard to criticize people, think!

Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

farida

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2008, 03:48:43 PM »
Salaam
Ayman did not like my acknowledgement of the code 19 and consider ?s the educational programme on TV I mentioned  ?sensationalized TV documentaries that cater to the ignorant.
Edip considers me unsettled who needs fixing because I objected to this debate: If you are "set in your own ways," then according to your own logic you are not worth listening; fix yourself first.?
This is interesting I have here two brilliant minds angry with me and I never thought that my views were worth this reaction of even acknowledgment by them. So with all due respect I will like Ayman & Edip  to knows that:
  I read  article by both and often pick the best from both side
  I have pretty good idea what they are likely to argue in the forthcoming debate.
  I never expected a conciliatory response from either
  I may be ignorant who needs fixing but I refuse to follow their respective sects.
 :peace:

Nun de plume

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2008, 09:01:37 PM »
Peace --

It?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical. This includes ALL verses in surah 9.

The trial is on those who impose what words should add up to 19, eliminating verses to make themselves into false messengers, extrapolating nonsense outside the book to mislead people, etc...

19 is only a prime number/checksum as is 12791. The structure/symmetry is one proof amongst many...


Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd

1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................203

9..........129..........138..........138...........

110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........

6555.......6236....12791.......6236.....6555

6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989

6555 = 19 x 345
114 = 19 x 6
57 = 19 x 3

Here is the entire structure in the link below...

Quran - 89:3

WaalshshafAAi waalwatri
And/by the even, and the odd.


Go figure...893 = 19 x 47

Bigmo

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2008, 11:03:57 PM »
Peace --

It?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical. This includes ALL verses in surah 9.

The trial is on those who impose what words should add up to 19, eliminating verses to make themselves into false messengers, extrapolating nonsense outside the book to mislead people, etc...

19 is only a prime number/checksum as is 12791. The structure/symmetry is one proof amongst many...


Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd

1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................203

9..........129..........138..........138...........

110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........

6555.......6236....12791.......6236.....6555

6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989

6555 = 19 x 345
114 = 19 x 6
57 = 19 x 3

Here is the entire structure in the link below...

Go figure...893 = 19 x 47


I never got into that 19 thing.

Maybe its because I am bad in math and numbers :brickwall:
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe

farida

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2008, 10:19:41 AM »
Peace --

It?s clear the Quran structure is mathematical. This includes ALL verses in surah 9.

The trial is on those who impose what words should add up to 19, eliminating verses to make themselves into false messengers, extrapolating nonsense outside the book to mislead people, etc...

19 is only a prime number/checksum as is 12791. The structure/symmetry is one proof amongst many...

Here is the entire structure in the link below...

Go figure...893 = 19 x 47


Salaam Nun,

Good to see you back; I was wondering where you?d disappeared to. Thank God you got treated in time and I hope you are feeling fine now. Now you will have to make up for your missed fast in the shorter winter days  :P.
I see you have done your usual calculations which is beyond me, as last I did such long and extensive calculations was when I had to tutor my daughter.
I simply see code 19 as one sign among many, and glorify the Lord Who balances everything in the right proportions. I do not see it as a the driving force, which should govern the Qur?an verses. What are your views about it?

Some time back I saw a very good series of programmes on TV, mainly to do with nature around us and from space to earth. In that series I watched one programme featuring the mathematical code in nature around us.
They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us I can?t remember if it was about code 19,  but it was fascinating. Recently I have seen few a more U tube video,  and heard about someone call Rushid who has done a translation of the Qur'an. If he has done good he will find his reward with God other than that I do not see a reason to pay much attention to the followers of code 19.

 :peace:

truthseeker11

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2008, 10:33:40 AM »
Peace everyone,

Quote from: Farida
They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us

It is called the Fibonacci pattern or the Golden Ratio:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_17.htm

http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/fibslide/jbfibslide.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Fibonacci_numbers_in_nature

http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/nature-golden-ratio-fibonacci.html

http://www.math.uiuc.edu/~gfrancis/math306/math306web/GoldenRatioPeteWintermute.htm

Because we are asked to ponder on God's creation in al-quran, and we are told that God's signs are present in the horizons and within us, we should also make the "Fibonacci Numbers" and "Golden Ratio" our new gods and start worshipping them too in addition to 19.  :hail
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say: ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

farida

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2008, 11:58:28 AM »
Peace everyone,

It is called the Fibonacci pattern or the Golden Ratio:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_17.htm

http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/fibslide/jbfibslide.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Fibonacci_numbers_in_nature

http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/nature-golden-ratio-fibonacci.html

http://www.math.uiuc.edu/~gfrancis/math306/math306web/GoldenRatioPeteWintermute.htm

Because we are asked to ponder on God's creation in al-quran, and we are told that God's signs are present in the horizons and within us, we should also make the "Fibonacci Numbers" and "Golden Ratio" our new gods and start worshipping them too in addition to 19.  :hail

Salaam truthseeker11,
Thank you for giving me the link; as I said I was not sure if it's about code 19 and its good of you to clarify it. As for belief this is what I said regarding the followers of code 19 :
They showed sun flowers and first round of seeds in the centre of the flower and how it kept increasing, a form that onward they showed same pattern in many flowers and surrounding us I can?t remember if it was about code 19,  but it was fascinating. Recently I have seen few a more U tube video,  and heard about someone call Rushid who has done a translation of the Qur'an. If he has done good he will find his reward with God other than that I do not see a reason to pay much attention to the followers of code 19.

 :peace:

Lobster

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2008, 12:27:49 PM »
And I think a code in the reading would be a very powerful argument against those who think the reading was written by humans.

It could be. But it cannot prove that it was written by God. Or that it was written by a benevolent creature/being. So in the end you always have to go back to the CONTENT of the book to judge it's veracity. So in the end the code is useless.

EDIT: if there is a code, that is.
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

Nun de plume

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Re: Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2008, 03:41:10 PM »
Salaam Nun,

Good to see you back; I was wondering where you?d disappeared to. Thank God you got treated in time and I hope you are feeling fine now. Now you will have to make up for your missed fast in the shorter winter days  :P.
I see you have done your usual calculations which is beyond me, as last I did such long and extensive calculations was when I had to tutor my daughter.
I simply see code 19 as one sign among many, and glorify the Lord Who balances everything in the right proportions. I do not see it as a the driving force, which should govern the Qur?an verses. What are your views about it?


Peace sister Farida and thank you for the well wishes. I?m doing good! 

It?s only a pattern like looking at a 114 story building with numbered floors and apartments; wish there was a way to post an excel spread sheet. Basically remove change, delete, shift one verse, chapter, etc., the whole structure collapses. I have shown this pattern to numerous friends including Christians, and all were like ? that?s too cool.

What other book has sections chapters organized as such. Like a beautiful flower, butterfly, or anything else in nature. Of course we don?t worship the structures that we see only admire God?s work.


Peace Bigmo,

I never got into that 19 thing.

Maybe its because I am bad in math and numbers :brickwall:

No need to understand math to see it -- only basic addition;

Add all chapters numbers 1 to 114 = 6555
Add all verses in each chapter = 6236
Add all chapters to number of verses = 12791

Separate even and odd above

57 will be even which add up to exactly 6236 = number of verses
57 will be odd which add up to exactly 6555 = sum of all chapters

The whole Quran has checkpoints/check sums divisible by 19.

Same principle as used in modern communication systems; example:

I'm going to send you a string of numbers (1,2, 3, 6, 7,) and before sending first add them 1+2+3+6+7 = 19. Then I send you the numbers along with 19.

When you get them you add them up and check to see if thier sum is 19.

This tells you that the numbers (i.e. The Message) arrived error free.

Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd

1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................203

9..........129..........138..........138...........

110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........

6555.......6236....12791.......6236.....6555

6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989

6555 = 19 x 345
114 = 19 x 6
57 = 19 x 3


Peace