Author Topic: Nun de plume, Ayman, OPF and all others who reject code-19 i finally wanna know  (Read 20899 times)

belH

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Peace "belalhammad",

JK- MAN for the last time WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE THAT THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF GOD IN THE 1ST PLACE?
أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ‌ۚ وَلَوۡ كَانَ مِنۡ عِندِ غَيۡرِ ٱللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ ٱخۡتِلَـٰفً۬ا ڪَثِيرً۬ا (٨٢)
Do they not ponder on the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. (4-82)


JK- Now youve shown your true face. THIS IS THE SAME argument Creationists Christians bring up when theyr presented with evidence of evolution. "GOD just made it look that things evolved in order to deceive people". Wht utter nonsese! The evidence is there and your accusing GOD of deceivng by using our observations(17:36) to get to know the truth and gain knowledge. If GOD as you claim were todeceive us regarding this THEN TEHRES NO GUARANTEE tht GOD is also deceiving ALL OF U in believing in the Quran whilst actually the BIBLE is true. AND this is exactly what Christians would tell you.
::)
 وَلَا تَتَّبِعُواْ خُطُوَٲتِ ٱلشَّيۡطَـٰنِ‌ۚ إِنَّهُ ۥ لَكُمۡ عَدُوٌّ۬ مُّبِينٌ (١٦٨) إِنَّمَا يَأۡمُرُكُم بِٱلسُّوٓءِ وَٱلۡفَحۡشَآءِ وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعۡلَمُونَ (١٦٩)
and do not follow the footsteps of Satan for he is to you an avowed enemy. (168) For he commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of Allah that of which ye have no knowledge (From the book). (169)

I do not see any knowldge from the book that gave you the authority to cut off verses from the Quran; according to the verse, Saten makes people say and do things to religion without knowledge from the Book.
 
JK- [3:7]  He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

Very Good;
Now, Give me a straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - about Code 19  :brickwall:



JK- It is different to say that Muhammad and the beleivers are "ruhumma(plural)" amongst themselves than to uni-directionally claim Muhammad is "Raheem" and more so "raufur raheem". Ive never read about a messenger having a double attribute in the Quran. This unique combi attribute refers exclusively to GOD and ofcourse the word "raheem" is special since its mentioned in the Bismillah. DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW PSYCHLOGY WORKS. Ofcourse the sunnis/shias will remeber the messenger when they recite Bismillah, even if so subconsciously, due to this. Regarding 129 this verse is CONTEXTUALLY RELATED, infact it IS ONE SENTENCE split into two verses by sunni/shia, TO 9:128 and hence if 9:128 is false it follows logically that 9:129 must also be false.
Where did you hear that Suni or Shia feel that way when saying the Basmalla :confused:
Moreover, Prophet Ibrahim were called "Haleem", which is used as when of God's attributes.
Please, we need evidances; your personal opinion and analysis that are not based on any proof=0.


JK- As i said if they put too much in the mushaf they thght msulims at tht time wld relize this and their scheme wldnt work. A 2nd reason cld be that they wanted to show that Muhammad's teachings were also present SEPARATE from the Quran and hence those need to be followed, WHICH IS EXACTLY THE ARGUMENT SUNNIS MAKE AND I JUST RECEIVED IT YESTERDAY FROM "BUBBLES" SHOWING ME A SUNNI WEBSITE. GOD Bless!
Why do you call God's Book Moshaf? Who gave you the Authority to give it that name? The Suni and Shia and others name the book the Moshaf (From Sohaf), but you should call it Quran or Ketab.

jonny_k

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Peace "belalhammad",

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أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ‌ۚ وَلَوۡ كَانَ مِنۡ عِندِ غَيۡرِ ٱللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ ٱخۡتِلَـٰفً۬ا ڪَثِيرً۬ا (٨٢)
Do they not ponder on the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. (4-82)
 ::)
 وَلَا تَتَّبِعُواْ خُطُوَٲتِ ٱلشَّيۡطَـٰنِ‌ۚ إِنَّهُ ۥ لَكُمۡ عَدُوٌّ۬ مُّبِينٌ (١٦٨) إِنَّمَا يَأۡمُرُكُم بِٱلسُّوٓءِ وَٱلۡفَحۡشَآءِ وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعۡلَمُونَ (١٦٩)
and do not follow the footsteps of Satan for he is to you an avowed enemy. (168) For he commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of Allah that of which ye have no knowledge (From the book). (169)

I do not see any knowldge from the book that gave you the authority to cut off verses from the Quran; according to the verse, Saten makes people say and do things to religion without knowledge from the Book.

JK- As i said ive not taken any verses out of the book. What weve done is WE USED THE CODE TO GET TO KNOW THE TRUE QURAN IN THE FIRST PLACE. Get it? I ask you the same question. Has the Quran IYO to be protected down to every WORD AND LETTER or not? If you say no and that only the meaning of the message is what counts then 1) I can either add verses which do not deviate from the basic message of the Quran but phrase them differently, 2)  We can remove many redundant verses from the Quran and still get the same meaning of the message.

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Very Good;
Now, Give me a straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - about Code 19  :brickwall:

JK- 74, the whole chapter and 74:30-31 is clear for us now. SEE this is what i told you earlier. 1) Multiple meaning verses can become clear with time and 2) The relativity of understanding verses in any particular time. YOU want GOD to put things in Words AS YOUD BEST UNDERSTAND SOMETHING but that is not always the case and youve no right to demand such. Many Atheists/agnostics also reject the Quran on this basis saying if the Quran woudlve really meant this as science it would have worded it this or that way. So this is nonsense. Clearly you can also see how the prophecy in 74:31, according to our understanding, has been fulfilled namely that the NUMBER 19, besides being a fitnah for some, HAS INCREASED OUR FAITH AND HAS CONVINCED BAHMAN THAT THE QURAN IS A DIVINE SCRIPTURE.

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Where did you hear that Suni or Shia feel that way when saying the Basmalla :confused:
Moreover, Prophet Ibrahim were called "Haleem", which is used as when of God's attributes.
Please, we need evidances; your personal opinion and analysis that are not based on any proof=0.

JK- This is obvious man since the same unique attribute is used for the messenger in 9:128. Also Prophet Ibrahim was called "heleem" and the king in Joseohs time ""al-'aziz" as well i know BUT these are not attributes UNIQUELY MENTIONED IN THE BISMILLAH and that is what is most significant. Besides ive not read about a messenger having two attributes like "rauf urraheem". This further indicates that people wanted to stress mroe heavy on Muhammad.

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Why do you call God's Book Moshaf? Who gave you the Authority to give it that name? The Suni and Shia and others name the book the Moshaf (From Sohaf), but you should call it Quran or Ketab.

JK- MAN I NEVER CALL GOD's Book mushaf. The sunni/shia sectarians do. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I DISTINGUISH BTW THE TWO AND I REPEATEDLY SAID THAT THE MUSHAF IS NOT QURAN. YOU on the other hand insisted that they are the same. MAN!
GOD Bless!

[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

jonny_k

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Peace again ?belalhammad?,
Lemme expose your accusation that I was the one who called GOD?s scripture "Mushaf" whilst it was actually you who did whilst I differentiated. I quote from
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596697.msg172666#msg172666
I said:
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Peace "belahammad",

JK- Ive explained before the BOOK is NOT THE MUSHAF.
THEN you replied:
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no way

Let GOD tell you Why you are WRONG
?

Next I quote again from
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596697.msg172674#msg172674
I said:
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theres a huge differnece btw "dhikr" and "mushaf".
You replied:
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no way

Let God tell you why
?

Then in your last post above
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596697.msg172835#msg172835
YOU NOW SAY:
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Why do you call God's Book Moshaf? Who gave you the Authority to give it that name? The Suni and Shia and others name the book the Moshaf (From Sohaf), but you should call it Quran or Ketab.

JK- THIS is exactly what ive been saying all along namely that the sunni/shia follow mushaf and that it is not the Quran. I think GOD is showing you a sign here. You have been exposed clearly. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

ayman

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Peace brother Wakas,

Interestingly you claim a math code protects AQ yet you cannot reform AQ based on the math code, nor can you tell what is missing if a deletion is made. The only thing you can theoretically do is tell if there is an addition but I have already discussed mechanisms/recommendations about verifying additions and code 19 aint one.

He can't do anything theoretically or whatever. If there is addition or deletion in multiples of 19 then the so-called Code can actually appear more impressive. How about adding 19 chapters with 19 verses and with each verse having 19 letters? JK and other Code 19ers would be drooling all over this and shouting "Allahu Akbar".

It is a fact that like all numerology, Code 19 involves the following steps:

1. Start with a preconception.
2. Use trial and error to try different calculations to justify those preconceptions
3. Only share the successful trials and hide the failed trials to give the false impression of a pattern

This is why Code 19ers will never discover any truth but will only reinforce their false preconceptions. This is also why without the Hadiths that cast doubt on 9:128-129, Dr. Khalifa would have never attempted to remove those passages. This is also why there are no honest Code 19ers who would share their failed trials, as I have been requesting on this forum and on the 19.org forum.

In this discussion, you can clearly see 74:30-31 in action because you can see who doesn't believe in the great reading without being attracted to Code 19. So they believe in the Code MORE than they believe in the great reading. Their claim of belief is as false as their Code. Please remember that 74:30-31 clearly states that the count/counting of 19 is nothing except a "fitna" (attractive temptation) for the disbelievers. Seeing this empirically verifiable fact is what results in increasing the belief of those who are ALREADY believers (without any Code).

As for the minor letter variations between copies of the great reading, this is perfectly normal since the great reading is actually written in a foreign Nabataean alphabet not in an Arabian alphabet. What you are seeing is a Nabataean transliteration like the English transliteration "bism allah alrahman alrahim". So like in English where sometimes people will write "rahim" as "raheem", you are going to get some letter variations between copies but none really changes the meaning.

Peace,

Ayman

jonny_k

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Peace "ayman",
Well, well, well look whos here. Ive already told you that code 19 made predictions which came out to be true and im going to take a look at your replies to mine at 19.org when they appear. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

jonny_k

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Peace "ayman",
You say:
Quote
As for the minor letter variations between copies of the great reading, this is perfectly normal since the great reading is actually written in a foreign Nabataean alphabet not in an Arabian alphabet. What you are seeing is a Nabataean transliteration like the English transliteration "bism allah alrahman alrahim". So like in English where sometimes people will write "rahim" as "raheem", you are going to get some letter variations between copies but none really changes the meaning.

JK- Minor and major are relative as ive explained above. I can say the removal of 9:128&129 and infact the removal of all redundant verses of the Quran, and there are many, would be minor change too. Quran being alkittaab and being protected by GOD must logically be so DOWN TO EVERY WORD AND LETTER which makes up a book otherwise theres nothing special about this protection claim. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

belH

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JK!!!!!
You asked why I think the Quran is the Word of God?
and my answer was:

)أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ‌ۚ وَلَوۡ كَانَ مِنۡ عِندِ غَيۡرِ ٱللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ ٱخۡتِلَـٰفً۬ا ڪَثِيرً۬ا (٨٢)
Do they not ponder on the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. (4-82)

You did not comment on my answer; do I take it that you are accepting my answer as the truth from God?

Peace "belalhammad",

JK- As i said ive not taken any verses out of the book. What weve done is WE USED THE CODE TO GET TO KNOW THE TRUE QURAN IN THE FIRST PLACE. Get it?

I get it long time ago; and that is why I asked you:

Why do you call God's Book Moshaf ? Who gave you the Authority to give it that name? The Suni and Shia and others name the book the Moshaf (From Sohaf), but you should call it Quran or Ketab.
 :confused:, are you?

Let me help you to understand why I asked this Question:
You and other Code 19 submitters are saying the following, I quote:

WE USED THE CODE TO GET TO KNOW THE TRUE QURAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
End Quote

The Book that you and other 19er used, studied and discovered Code 19 is the same book you and Suni and Shia are calling Moshaf. Did you get it? Even you said in the above quotation that you are using the Code that you discovered from Suni and Shia Quran to know the True Quran that Suni and Shia have. :confused:

When I said Moshaf, I said it because I know its Root Word "Sohof" which I showed to you in Quran; but you are using the name Moshaf to support your conclusion that the Book is different from Moshaf; thus I asked you to not use it again so you do not get :confused:


YOU want GOD to put things in Words AS YOUD BEST UNDERSTAND SOMETHING but that is not always the case and youve no right to demand such.

It is not me who demanding, but verse 3-7.
Again:
Now, Give me a straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture -    about Code 19
To make it easy ;D there is no such a verse in the Quran :brickwall:


HAS INCREASED OUR FAITH AND HAS CONVINCED BAHMAN THAT THE QURAN IS A DIVINE SCRIPTURE.

Me Too; after witnessing people rejecting verses from the Quran because of Code 19 Plote (A Trail for the Disblievers who reject Quran Verses and not the ones who believe in the Whole Book)



UNIQUELY MENTIONED IN THE BISMILLAH and that is what is most significant.

Are You Raheem With Cats? Because My Friend is Raoof & Raheem with Cats.
 :confused:, are you?


JK- MAN I NEVER CALL GOD's Book mushaf.
You did when you refered to the Book that Shia and Suni Have :sun:

jonny_k

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Peace "belalhammad",

JK!!!!!
You asked why I think the Quran is the Word of God?
and my answer was:

)أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ‌ۚ وَلَوۡ كَانَ مِنۡ عِندِ غَيۡرِ ٱللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ ٱخۡتِلَـٰفً۬ا ڪَثِيرً۬ا (٨٢)
Do they not ponder on the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. (4-82)

You did not comment on my answer; do I take it that you are accepting my answer as the truth from God?

JK- So how do you know where the Quran starts and where it ends in the first place? ONLY AFTER that can this verse even be discussed. Dont you get this? Otherwise howd you know that this very verse belongs to the Quran? So you cant escape the fact that there must be something else and tht can only be a numerically structured code to reveal the Quran in the first place i.e. to define the boundaries of the Quran.

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I get it long time ago; and that is why I asked you:

Why do you call God's Book Moshaf ? Who gave you the Authority to give it that name? The Suni and Shia and others name the book the Moshaf (From Sohaf), but you should call it Quran or Ketab.
 :confused:, are you?

JK- I already answered this qs of yours.

Quote
Let me help you to understand why I asked this Question:
You and other Code 19 submitters are saying the following, I quote:

WE USED THE CODE TO GET TO KNOW THE TRUE QURAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
End Quote

The Book that you and other 19er used, studied and discovered Code 19 is the same book you and Suni and Shia are calling Moshaf. Did you get it? Even you said in the above quotation that you are using the Code that you discovered from Suni and Shia Quran to know the True Quran that Suni and Shia have. :confused:

JK- The book that sunni/shia claim to be quran is NOT ACTUALLY Quran. They call what they claim to be quran or rather the book in which the quran is written into, the mushaf, and i referred to it as such. Nowhere did i call the Quran mushaf.

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When I said Moshaf, I said it because I know its Root Word "Sohof" which I showed to you in Quran; but you are using the name Moshaf to support your conclusion that the Book is different from Moshaf; thus I asked you to not use it again so you do not get :confused:

JK- MAN your making the issue confusing now. Yes "suhuf" has the same root as mushaf but sunni/shia use "mushaf" torefer to a special book in which they claim the Quran is written. SINCE this is commonly known i referred to their book as such NOT the Quran.

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It is not me who demanding, but verse 3-7.
Again:
Now, Give me a straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture -    about Code 19
To make it easy ;D there is no such a verse in the Quran :brickwall:

JK- What is straightforward to me may not be straightforward to you. For me and many others chapter 74 is straightforward as ive mentioned. Cant you get this? this reminds me of sunnis/shia when they ask for ever more straightforward verses to show them that we shldnt follow hadith besides Quran or that hadith contradict Quran.

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Me Too; after witnessing people rejecting verses from the Quran because of Code 19 Plote (A Trail for the Disblievers who reject Quran Verses and not the ones who believe in the Whole Book)

JK- I do not beleive that 9:128&129 belong to the Quran in the first place. So technically how am i rejecting Quranic verses? Do you see the flaw there in your argument?

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Are You Raheem With Cats? Because My Friend is Raoof & Raheem with Cats.
 :confused:, are you?

JK- NO that attribute has been reserved for GOD. I can have "rahm" for cats yes but i wld never call myself "raheem". And saying that your friend is "raufur raheem" with anything is very wrong of you IMHO. The Quran 1) never used the attribute "raheem" in tht form for anyone but GOD, 2) it never used double attributes for anyone but GOD.

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You did when you refered to the Book that Shia and Suni Have :sun:

JK- NO i didnt. I referred to what they claim to be the book in which quran is written as Mushaf, NEVER THE QURAN. Get it now? GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

belH

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Peace "belalhammad",

JK- So how do you know where the Quran starts and where it ends in the first place? ONLY AFTER that can this verse even be discussed. Dont you get this? .

The verse says "Do they not ponder on the Qur'an (with care)";

Do you see : "DO THEY NOT CALCULATE THE QURAN" instead?


JK- The book that sunni/shia claim to be quran is NOT ACTUALLY Quran.
So why do you claim that you discovered Code 19 from the Quran, which is not ACTUALLY Quran. Why you are SOOOOOO :confused:


JK- What is straightforward to me may not be straightforward to you. For me and many others chapter 74 is straightforward as ive mentioned. Cant you get this?
 
First, you are doing what 3-7 porhbited you from doing; you are following non well established (non straightforward meaning) verses to Cancel out the very  straightforward verses, in which God Says that THE BOOK HAS BEEN GURDED.
Wake Up :o

JK- I do not beleive that 9:128&129 belong to the Quran in the first place. So technically how am i rejecting Quranic verses? Do you see the flaw there in your argument?
:rotfl:
Yes I see a Huge Flaw in your intaligent, after reading the above;  :(
YOU ARE TECHNICALLY REJECTING TWO VERSES :brickwall:

JK- NO that attribute has been reserved for GOD. I can have "rahm" for cats yes but i wld never call myself "raheem". And saying that your friend is "raufur raheem" with anything is very wrong of you IMHO. The Quran 1) never used the attribute "raheem" in tht form for anyone but GOD, 2) it never used double attributes for anyone but GOD.
I advice you to ask an Arabic Teacher for help; There is no other way that you can say what I said about my friend and the Cat eccept by using Raoof & Raheem. Ask Edip ;D

jonny_k

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Peace "belalhammad",

The verse says "Do they not ponder on the Qur'an (with care)";

Do you see : "DO THEY NOT CALCULATE THE QURAN" instead?

JK- See his is exactly your problem. You want GOD to say what you want. Ofcourse GOD mentions things the way He wants. Code-19 was to be kept a secret and revealed only in 1974. Everything fits perfectly and GOD has shown us what He wanted to show.

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So why do you claim that you discovered Code 19 from the Quran, which is not ACTUALLY Quran. Why you are SOOOOOO :confused:

JK- Mathematical pattern based on no. 19 IS PART OF QURAN as indicated in sura 74. It remained a secret only to be revelaed in 1974.

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First, you are doing what 3-7 porhbited you from doing; you are following non well established (non straightforward meaning) verses to Cancel out the very  straightforward verses, in which God Says that THE BOOK HAS BEEN GURDED.
Wake Up :o

JK- Where have we cancelled out straightforward verses with our understanding? No verses have been cancelled out. Rather code-19 tells us what is Quran first.

Quote
:rotfl:
Yes I see a Huge Flaw in your intaligent, after reading the above;  :(
YOU ARE TECHNICALLY REJECTING TWO VERSES :brickwall:

JK- No im not technically rejecting anything. YOU are INFACT technically accepting two verses as part of Quran which are not.

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I advice you to ask an Arabic Teacher for help; There is no other way that you can say what I said about my friend and the Cat eccept by using Raoof & Raheem. Ask Edip ;D

JK- Oh yes one can use the word "rahma" as the Quran ahs done calling Muhammad "rahmatu lil'alameen". That would be "huwa rahmatu lihuraira" meaning "he is a mercy for the cats". And for your info modern arabic is not the standard as you can ask any arab and today hell tell u tht the word "daraba" means "to beat". This doesnt show anything. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.