Nun de plume, Ayman, OPF and all others who reject code-19 i finally wanna know

[jonny_k]

Peace ?belalhammad?,

Jk! Are scientists the ones who dectate what you should approve from Quran and what you shouln't?
Scientists can not predict any thing in the future, don't you know that from Quran? Man what is going on in your head?

JK- Scientists can and have already made many useful predictions in the fields of medicine, biology, evolution, cosmology etc etc some with great accuracy. What is going on in your head? For example scientists predicted based on the fact that humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and apes 24 pairs WE SHLD FIND ONE PAIR IN HUMANS WHICH LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE A FUSION and guess what they found it. Other than that there are so many predictions which evolution makes and they came out to be true so much that we now know from which layers of the rocks wed get what type of complex creatures, i.e. the range of their complexity. You should really educate yourself in science. Here go through all these parts and see how many predictions science makes just in support for evolution:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Science and reason is how we get to know which is GOD?s Word in the first place.

Every thing was planned, including the direct intervention.
God can do anything, anytime when He wants.
would you believe that God can intervene and turn you to anything He wants, if he wants?

JK- I believe ofcourse GOD can do so BUT HE WONT because it would violate His laws and if He did that itd make Him look, GOD forbid, weak and GOD does not do that. Plain and simple.

YOU are VERY WRONG, as usual.
Believers believe in the Unseen "The Gaib". There are no evidence for the Unseen. What are the Scientific Evidence of Heaven and Hill or Judgement Day?

JK- There is the omega point theory by Frank J. Tipler. Maybe you should give that a read. Also there can be a lot of evidence for the Ghaib such as atoms, quarks, electrons, other elementary particles, electric and magnetic fields etc.

The Quran includes Modern Knowledge that humans are witnessing and will witness. But, it still a Faith Book in many issues, which are the Unseens.

JK- And this was exactly my qs how do you know that those verses which are still unproven belong to the Quran? What mechanism did GOD give us to recognize those verses as part of the Quran. This has been my qs all along.

CODE 19 (to delete verses) IS a LIE untill PROVEN BY THE TRUTH from THE BOOK (even your Quran minus 9-128 &129)
Untill then YOU are a POET.
Again where are your Straightforward Proof? Admit it, you have nothing

JK- Ive proven it but you fail to recognize it so I cant do anything else. If you believe that a significant no of initials just coincidentally occur in multiples of 19 or that the GVs of four attributes of GOD are xples of 19 and matching exactly the count of the words in the Bismillah are all coincidence then theres nothing I can do except tell you that you yourself believing in the Quran is also nothing but coincidence coz you were emotionally attached there just like other ppl get emotionally attached to other religions.
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=19
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=21

)أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانَ‌ۚ وَلَوۡ كَانَ مِنۡ عِندِ غَيۡرِ ٱللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ ٱخۡتِلَـٰفً۬ا ڪَثِيرً۬ا (٨٢)
Do they not ponder on the Qur'an 
(with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy
. (4-82)

JK- As I said this verse is ONLY APPLICABLE once you know the whole Quran or in other words the whole Quran is revealed to you. Nobody today can claim that they?ve got the whole Quran. You first need to know what is the Quran before you can go on to the contradictions. ALSO just because a book does not contain contradictions does not make it divine. It is a supporting factor of it?s being divine, yes, and that?s what the verse says. It doesn?t say ?A book which has no contras MUST BE  Divine? does it for then the verse would be false. But the verse indicates that it is MOST LIKELY, particularly in times back then, that books which were written by the hands of men contained numerous contradictions. So this is not enough to prove that the Quran is from GOD and 2ndly it doesn?t prove what the Quran is in the 1st place or where to find it. Get it?

If you want to continue debating this, let us use appropriate place (you can continue Arnold thread)

JK- Ok bring these points of mine there and answer them. Id then reply. GOD Bless!

[belH]

Peace ?belalhammad?,

JK- Scientists can and have already made many useful predictions in the fields of medicine, biology, evolution, cosmology etc etc some with great accuracy. What is going on in your head? For example scientists predicted based on the fact that humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and apes 24 pairs WE SHLD FIND ONE PAIR IN HUMANS WHICH LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE A FUSION and guess what they found it. Other than that there are so many predictions which evolution makes and they came out to be true so much that we now know from which layers of the rocks wed get what type of complex creatures, i.e. the range of their complexity. You should really educate yourself in science. Here go through all these parts and see how many predictions science makes just in support for evolution:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Science and reason is how we get to know which is GOD?s Word in the first place.

If you want to believe that you are an Ape, then it is your Choice

JK- I believe ofcourse GOD can do so BUT HE WONT because it would violate His laws and if He did that itd make Him look, GOD forbid, weak and GOD does not do that. Plain and simple.

Are you daring that God cann't turn you to an Ape, for example?

JK- There is the omega point theory by Frank J. Tipler. Maybe you should give that a read. Also there can be a lot of evidence for the Ghaib such as atoms, quarks, electrons, other elementary particles, electric and magnetic fields etc.

Please, why cann't you give me an Straight answer

Did Frank J was able to proof these Unseen from chapter 55, for example:

فَيَوۡمَٮِٕذٍ۬ لَّا يُسۡـَٔلُ عَن ذَنۢبِهِۦۤ إِنسٌ۬ وَلَا جَآنٌّ۬ (٣٩) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّڪُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٠) يُعۡرَفُ ٱلۡمُجۡرِمُونَ بِسِيمَـٰهُمۡ فَيُؤۡخَذُ بِٱلنَّوَٲصِى وَٱلۡأَقۡدَامِ (٤١) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٢) هَـٰذِهِۦ جَهَنَّمُ ٱلَّتِى يُكَذِّبُ بِہَا ٱلۡمُجۡرِمُونَ (٤٣) يَطُوفُونَ بَيۡنَہَا وَبَيۡنَ حَمِيمٍ ءَانٍ۬ (٤٤) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٥) وَلِمَنۡ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِۦ جَنَّتَانِ (٤٦) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٧) ذَوَاتَآ أَفۡنَانٍ۬ (٤٨) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٩) فِيہِمَا عَيۡنَانِ تَجۡرِيَانِ (٥٠) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥١) فِيہِمَا مِن كُلِّ فَـٰكِهَةٍ۬ زَوۡجَانِ (٥٢) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥٣) مُتَّكِـِٔينَ عَلَىٰ فُرُشِۭ بَطَآٮِٕنُہَا مِنۡ إِسۡتَبۡرَقٍ۬‌ۚ وَجَنَى ٱلۡجَنَّتَيۡنِ دَانٍ۬ (٥٤) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥٥) فِيہِنَّ قَـٰصِرَٲتُ ٱلطَّرۡفِ لَمۡ يَطۡمِثۡہُنَّ إِنسٌ۬ قَبۡلَهُمۡ وَلَا جَآنٌّ۬ (٥٦) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥٧) كَأَنَّہُنَّ ٱلۡيَاقُوتُ وَٱلۡمَرۡجَانُ (٥٨) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥٩) هَلۡ جَزَآءُ ٱلۡإِحۡسَـٰنِ إِلَّا ٱلۡإِحۡسَـٰنُ (٦٠) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦١) وَمِن دُونِہِمَا جَنَّتَانِ (٦٢) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦٣) مُدۡهَآمَّتَانِ (٦٤) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦٥) فِيہِمَا عَيۡنَانِ نَضَّاخَتَانِ (٦٦) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦٧) فِيہِمَا فَـٰكِهَةٌ۬ وَنَخۡلٌ۬ وَرُمَّانٌ۬ (٦٨) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦٩) فِيہِنَّ خَيۡرَٲتٌ حِسَانٌ۬ (٧٠) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٧١) حُورٌ۬ مَّقۡصُورَٲتٌ۬ فِى ٱلۡخِيَامِ (٧٢) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٧٣) لَمۡ يَطۡمِثۡہُنَّ إِنسٌ۬ قَبۡلَهُمۡ وَلَا جَآنٌّ۬ (٧٤) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٧٥) مُتَّكِـِٔينَ عَلَىٰ رَفۡرَفٍ خُضۡرٍ۬ وَعَبۡقَرِىٍّ حِسَانٍ۬ (٧٦) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٧٧) تَبَـٰرَكَ ٱسۡمُ رَبِّكَ ذِى ٱلۡجَلَـٰلِ وَٱلۡإِكۡرَامِ (٧٨)
[/quote]

JK- And this was exactly my qs how do you know that those verses which are still unproven belong to the Quran? What mechanism did GOD give us to recognize those verses as part of the Quran. This has been my qs all along.

Because they are written in the Quran

JK- Ive proven it but you fail to recognize it so I cant do anything else. If you believe that a significant no of initials just coincidentally occur in multiples of 19 or that the GVs of four attributes of GOD are xples of 19 and matching exactly the count of the words in the Bismillah are all coincidence then theres nothing I can do except tell you that you yourself believing in the Quran is also nothing but coincidence coz you were emotionally attached there just like other ppl get emotionally attached to other religions.
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=19
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=21

You still The Poet untill you bring the Straightforward Verse from my Quran or your "Quran minus Two Verses"

JK- As I said this verse is ONLY APPLICABLE once you know the whole Quran or in other words the whole Quran is revealed to you. Nobody today can claim that they?ve got the whole Quran. You first need to know what is the Quran before you can go on to the contradictions. ALSO just because a book does not contain contradictions does not make it divine. It is a supporting factor of it?s being divine, yes, and that?s what the verse says. It doesn?t say ?A book which has no contras MUST BE  Divine? does it for then the verse would be false. But the verse indicates that it is MOST LIKELY, particularly in times back then, that books which were written by the hands of men contained numerous contradictions. So this is not enough to prove that the Quran is from GOD and 2ndly it doesn?t prove what the Quran is in the 1st place or where to find it. Get it?

All what you said are your saying and not the Truth (from the book); thus, you are a Poet.

JK- Ok bring these points of mine there and answer them. Id then reply. GOD Bless!

One Day, I might do that.

[jonny_k]

Peace "belalhammad",

If you want to believe that you are an Ape, then it is your Choice

JK- "ape" is a scientific classification and we are still classified as such. As for us and chimps sharing a common ancestor this has been proven beyond doubt in th recent years. Here check these three videos carefully:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=related

(AFTER ONE MINUTE THE ACTUAL INTERESTING PT STARTS):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUxLR9hdorI

Are you daring that God cann't turn you to an Ape, for example?

JK- We are already apes, scientifically speaking BUT yes i beleive GOD could turn us or me into anything. HOWEVER He would NEVER do that since He says that He never changes His laws and everything happens at the appropriate time. This is what makes GOD the most wise the One whos able to calculate beforehand and theres no need for His correcting things later on which is what would require intervention.

Please, why cann't you give me an Straight answer

Did Frank J was able to proof these Unseen from chapter 55, for example:

فَيَوۡمَٮِٕذٍ۬ لَّا يُسۡـَٔلُ عَن ذَنۢبِهِۦۤ إِنسٌ۬ وَلَا جَآنٌّ۬ (٣٩) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّڪُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٠) يُعۡرَفُ ٱلۡمُجۡرِمُونَ بِسِيمَـٰهُمۡ فَيُؤۡخَذُ بِٱلنَّوَٲصِى وَٱلۡأَقۡدَامِ (٤١) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٢) هَـٰذِهِۦ جَهَنَّمُ ٱلَّتِى يُكَذِّبُ بِہَا ٱلۡمُجۡرِمُونَ (٤٣) يَطُوفُونَ بَيۡنَہَا وَبَيۡنَ حَمِيمٍ ءَانٍ۬ (٤٤) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٥) وَلِمَنۡ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِۦ جَنَّتَانِ (٤٦) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٧) ذَوَاتَآ أَفۡنَانٍ۬ (٤٨) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٤٩) فِيہِمَا عَيۡنَانِ تَجۡرِيَانِ (٥٠) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥١) فِيہِمَا مِن كُلِّ فَـٰكِهَةٍ۬ زَوۡجَانِ (٥٢) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥٣) مُتَّكِـِٔينَ عَلَىٰ فُرُشِۭ بَطَآٮِٕنُہَا مِنۡ إِسۡتَبۡرَقٍ۬‌ۚ وَجَنَى ٱلۡجَنَّتَيۡنِ دَانٍ۬ (٥٤) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥٥) فِيہِنَّ قَـٰصِرَٲتُ ٱلطَّرۡفِ لَمۡ يَطۡمِثۡہُنَّ إِنسٌ۬ قَبۡلَهُمۡ وَلَا جَآنٌّ۬ (٥٦) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥٧) كَأَنَّہُنَّ ٱلۡيَاقُوتُ وَٱلۡمَرۡجَانُ (٥٨) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٥٩) هَلۡ جَزَآءُ ٱلۡإِحۡسَـٰنِ إِلَّا ٱلۡإِحۡسَـٰنُ (٦٠) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦١) وَمِن دُونِہِمَا جَنَّتَانِ (٦٢) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦٣) مُدۡهَآمَّتَانِ (٦٤) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦٥) فِيہِمَا عَيۡنَانِ نَضَّاخَتَانِ (٦٦) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦٧) فِيہِمَا فَـٰكِهَةٌ۬ وَنَخۡلٌ۬ وَرُمَّانٌ۬ (٦٨) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٦٩) فِيہِنَّ خَيۡرَٲتٌ حِسَانٌ۬ (٧٠) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٧١) حُورٌ۬ مَّقۡصُورَٲتٌ۬ فِى ٱلۡخِيَامِ (٧٢) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٧٣) لَمۡ يَطۡمِثۡہُنَّ إِنسٌ۬ قَبۡلَهُمۡ وَلَا جَآنٌّ۬ (٧٤) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٧٥) مُتَّكِـِٔينَ عَلَىٰ رَفۡرَفٍ خُضۡرٍ۬ وَعَبۡقَرِىٍّ حِسَانٍ۬ (٧٦) فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (٧٧) تَبَـٰرَكَ ٱسۡمُ رَبِّكَ ذِى ٱلۡجَلَـٰلِ وَٱلۡإِكۡرَامِ (٧٨)

JK- As i said now we come back to my original argument that unless those verses do not have some solid mathematical structure which protects them down to the letter id have to remain agnostic to this content, NOT because i dont believe in the Quran, but because im not sure that this is what the Quran says. Letters couldve been altered in this "mushaf" your presenting and we need to confirm. However I do accept with some probability that these letters may be in the correct order even in this "mushaf" and so i can accept that theyr talking about the afterlife when a new universe with new laws will be created. BUT what has that got to do with GOD intervening?

Because they are written in the Quran

JK- See now your using a circular argument. How do you know what the Quran is? This has been my qs all along. If i come up to you and say "this is quran" will you accept it as such? Common man, think!

You still The Poet untill you bring the Straightforward Verse from my Quran or your "Quran minus Two Verses"

JK- Theres no quran - 2 verses ONLY mushaf minus two verses which equals Quran.

All what you said are your saying and not the Truth (from the book); thus, you are a Poet.

JK- This is typical for any religious person from any religion. It does not tell anything about truth. You should have addressed my points.

One Day, I might do that.

JK- Ill be waiting. GOD Bless!

[belH]

Peace "belalhammad",

JK- "ape" is a scientific classification and we are still classified as such. As for us and chimps sharing a common ancestor this has been proven beyond doubt in th recent years. Here check these three videos carefully:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=related

(AFTER ONE MINUTE THE ACTUAL INTERESTING PT STARTS):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUxLR9hdorI

You see, You are talking about God Creation without any Proof from Quran; moreover, you are rejecting the human creation that was discribed in Quran (the creation of Adam).
How can you call yourself a Submitter of Quran; you should call yourself a Submitter of Scientests.

JK- We are already apes

That is what I thought I'm debating with

JK- As i said now we come back to my original argument that unless those verses do not have some solid mathematical structure which protects them down to the letter id have to remain agnostic to this content, NOT because i dont believe in the Quran, but because im not sure that this is what the Quran says. Letters couldve been altered in this "mushaf" your presenting and we need to confirm. However I do accept with some probability that these letters may be in the correct order even in this "mushaf" and so i can accept that theyr talking about the afterlife when a new universe with new laws will be created. BUT what has that got to do with GOD intervening?

That has nothing to do with God intervening, but with your frist comment where you said Iman has to be based on Scientific proofs.

As you can see there are no Scientific proofs for Heaven and Hill or JD. But to be a submitter you have to believe in them as they were discribed in quran (and true Torah and Bible).

And I take it that you DO NOT Believe on them because their are no scientific proof?

JK- See now your using a circular argument. How do you know what the Quran is? This has been my qs all along. If i come up to you and say "this is quran" will you accept it as such? Common man, think!

My answer allways was one answer from the Quran (a Straightforward verse), which I showed to you many time, but you are runing in a Circular argument.

JK- Theres no quran - 2 verses ONLY mushaf minus two verses which equals Quran.

For more than 1400 years nobody succeeded in changing the Quran, and nor will you or any body else in the futuer. GOD IS GAURDING THE QURAN, and not me or any other Human.

JK- This is typical for any religious person from any religion. It does not tell anything about truth. You should have addressed my points.

If you want to convence me, use the Quran

[jonny_k]

Peace "belalhammad",

You see, You are talking about God Creation without any Proof from Quran; moreover, you are rejecting the human creation that was discribed in Quran (the creation of Adam).
How can you call yourself a Submitter of Quran; you should call yourself a Submitter of Scientests.

JK- The Quran NEVER states that the humans were created directly BUT that we started off as an embryo. Please read my posts here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13244.msg172241#msg172241 onwards

That is what I thought I'm debating with

JK- Please see the evidence ive provided in my above post. Even "ayman, whos a strong, if not the strongest opponent of code-19, accepts evolution. The word "ape" is a scientific classification which includes us.

That has nothing to do with God intervening, but with your frist comment where you said Iman has to be based on Scientific proofs.

JK- Yes it has to be based on observations in the real world, which is done with science, and this is what the Quran commands us to do in 17:36 and many other verses which ask us to ponder upon GOD's doings in the real world.

As you can see there are no Scientific proofs for Heaven and Hill or JD. But to be a submitter you have to believe in them as they were discribed in quran (and true Torah and Bible).

And I take it that you DO NOT Believe on them because their are no scientific proof?

JK- There is scientific proof for them as well as proof for those verses to be from GOD via the mathematical code as ive also mentioned before. Also read this article by bro Arnold:
http://19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0

My answer allways was one answer from the Quran (a Straightforward verse), which I showed to you many time, but you are runing in a Circular argument.

JK- You think that your answer was from the Quran just like sunnis/shia think many of their answers are from the Quran itself whilst theyve actually misinterpreted the verses.

For more than 1400 years nobody succeeded in changing the Quran, and nor will you or any body else in the futuer. GOD IS GAURDING THE QURAN, and not me or any other Human.

JK- How do you know that? The oldest manuscripts, the samarqand discovered in 1996, has many variances from the current manuscripts. Other than that there are now 1000s of manuscripts published by submission.org without 9:128&129. So if you think that the Quran is the mushaf then it surely has changed. Hence i asked you How do we know GOD protected the Quran(rem just because the Quran says so IS A CIRCULAR ARGUMENT, SOMETHING WHICH YOU ACCUSE ME OFF) and what is the mechanism GOD used to preserve the Quran?

If you want to convence me, use the Quran

JK- This is the same argument sunnis/shias use. You cant prove the literal Quran using the literal Quran. This is CIRCULAR reasoning. You need to prove the literal Quran, the words in it and their sequence, using something else i.e. some other mechanism. GOD Bless!