Author Topic: Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot  (Read 9912 times)

afdhere

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Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2003, 11:23:07 AM »
Peace, Damon,

:roll: Lord have Mercy.

First of, I'm someone who does not really have much Arab culture. I don't eat all red meat, for example :) And that includes the cute camels the Arabs dulge(d) in ;-) ... and I could give you many other lists ...

NEVERTHELESS... those stuff are int he Qur'an :roll: In many parts of the world, nobody eats camels :( Why did God include it then? :shock: Because there is a story behind it ;-).... which is certainly NOT in the Qur'an.

The Jews in Arabia told the early Muslims that they shouldn't eat camels :) That they should observe the Sabbath :) That they should have unlimited prayers :) That they should.... Well... You get the point :-P

And I'm gonna go be a little bit more manipulative and have me some TURKEY (which Arabs don't have lol) for lunch :-P
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zenje

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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2003, 12:27:15 PM »
afdhere,
Quote
In many parts of the world, nobody eats camels :(   Why did God include it then? :shock:

If it's not too much trouble, would you mind quoting a verse? Thanks.
If they turn away, then Say: "God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne." [9:129]

afdhere

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« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2003, 01:15:13 PM »
Peace, Zenj,

Here is one verse:

[22.36] And (as for) the camels, We have made them of the signs of the religion of Allah for you; for you therein is much good; therefore mention the name of Allah on them as they stand in a row, then when they fall down eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar; thus have We made them subservient to you, that you may be grateful.

As far as I know, there are over 15 mentions of camels, including places where God takes them  'mathal' or example... as "camel to go through needle" -- such example does not make sense to someone who has no clue about camels.



Afdhere
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zenje

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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2003, 02:47:01 PM »
Peace Afdher,
er... thanks for the verse, although I have it as;
And the animals used for offering We have made for you from the rites of God, in them is good for you. So mention God?s name upon them in succession, so once they are offered, then eat from them and give food to the poor and the needy. It was thus that We have made them in service to you, that you may be thankful.[22:36]
Nevertheless, the point you were putting across earlier is,
Quote
In many parts of the world, nobody eats camels  Why did God include it then?
 
First of all, camel is eaten in different parts of Africa (not just by muslims there, plus, none of the other ("15") instances mentioned in the Qur'an talk about eating the camel) Secondly, Camels are all over the world, whether they are eaten or not, it's really the choice of the individual, not cultural. So what's the deal with you and camels now?  :wink:
If they turn away, then Say: "God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne." [9:129]

mquran

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« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2003, 02:49:23 PM »
Salaamun alaikum again Afdhere


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On the other hand, those who look at the Hadith as complete "Satanic" are also on a dangerous route.


Well, I didn't want to focus on this, but as a brother pointed out, not answering can be tantamount to admitting ones mistake, I will answer.

Please tell me a single hadith which, if I consider to be satanic, will affect my understanding of al-quraan.
 

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As far as I'm concerned, the Hadith are the history of early Muslims, begining with Muhammad. It is Human history, which means it is full of errors. But it should be noted that there are most certainly stuff in the Qur'an that God mentions in passing (like all the wrong things Muhammad does, for example) ... where the Hadiths lays out in detail.


The history of human al-muslimeen began when Allah said 'I will place a khalifa in the earth' (2/30). Your definition of 'muslim' is Arab-centric.


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As a human -- and a being that is naturally 'curious' -- I wanna know what "wives" made the dude see something lawful as unlawful. I wanna know what "wife" he was supposed to take after Zaid. I wanna know--- well, you get the picture ;-) What can I say.... I love drama lol.


Well, lets see what the Quraan says to that:

O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing. (33/37)

As for drama, surely Dallas or Dynasty will suffice ?


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When people like Bukhari went around collecting the Hadith, they didn't intend to collect another Qur'an (though that is certainly the case now with many Muslims... sigh... ) but rather for people like me who had NO idea what the world was like for Muhammad -- the man who recieved the Qur'an -- to understand his life... his times... how people thought, etc.


How people thought or how whoever related that hadith WANTED US TO BELIEVE how they thought ?

Manipulated perceptions come in real handy. Ask the Christian polemecists when they use hadith. They LOVE Bukhari.

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You must understand, the Messengers of God are nothing but humans like you and me. God would NEVER communicate with them on a different level. And, believe it or not, I'm far intelligent today than Muhammad was... as a man, as you are... as the next dude in today's world is. If the Qur'an was revealed to you or me or someone else living today, it would be totally a different Qur'an. If nothing else, you would see lots of lawsuits in the Qur'an :lol:


Actually, the Quran IS being related on us today itself (11/120, look out for the phrase 'naqussu ala'). The problem is, there's an extra-quranic corpus of text blocking that organic process. Historicising the Quran, as it were.



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Yes, it does. There is no point in 'subjegating' women in that time. They already were. It was the men that were humiliated and abused.


Sorry, Im not getting this. I will reread your article again.


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I'm sure you mean 'romantic' love. And, yes, there are relationships without love. For example, Muhammad was asked to marry a woman... to make a point. It had nothing to do with love. Also, men are allowed to marry up to four wives, though God tells us that a man cannot love more than one since God only gave him one heart. As mentioned above, there are scholars that argue those 3 other women are supposed to be the mothers of orphans (as was the case with the early Muslims) ... which certainly means they were not in love with them at all. Just to be fathers to those children... and/or to give them more children.


Yes, these ladies could be 'maa malakat aimaan'.

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That said, certainly zawj applies -- i said before -- to anyone who is a significent other to you, wheter you love them or not. Zawj is the consenting [romantic] relationship between two beings.


Im beginning not to think so now. I think zawjiyya is related to a one-one relationships only. Please see 30/21 where the word 'ilaiha', a singular form is used despite plurals being used throughout.

My humble suggestions are also to look up rijaal and nisaa usage in the Quraan. I do not believe these are related to physical gender alone.

thanks for your input.

afdhere

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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2003, 03:26:50 PM »
Peace, Zenj,

Ok... see this is a good example :roll: The word BUDN... refers only the sacrificial camels and oxen/cows, but more than anything refers to the camels. Not sheep, not goat or any other animal.

Of all the crappy translators out there, only khalifa translates as "animals." Just like he translates dammir in 22:27 as "various exhausted (means of transportation)" .. hmph! The word means lean camels... which people ride because they don't get tired easily :-P

Camel was not eaten in Africa until Islam arrived. In fact, most of Africa didn't even use camels until Arabs came. And who are the people who eat camels outside of Muslims? And Muslim-influenced lands?

By the way, I was talking about my friend -- who was an Arizonan Indian... who didn't even HEARD of camels... let alone eat them.
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afdhere

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« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2003, 04:02:47 PM »
Wasalam, Mquran,

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Please tell me a single hadith which, if I consider to be satanic, will affect my understanding of al-quraan.


What about the Hadith in Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 162 -- which talks about Umm Salamah and her "gay" attendant who shows too much not-so-faggy feelings? 24:31's "male attendants" without that Hadith (and other historical records) is like... uhm... so confusing. Hey look just in this thread :lol:


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The history of human al-muslimeen began when Allah said 'I will place a khalifa in the earth' (2/30). Your definition of 'muslim' is Arab-centric.


You know what I mean. I'm talking about the people who believed in Muhammad, hence Muhammad and after. Besides, nobody calls themselves Muslims but those people... so...


And funny ... about your mentioning of asking the questioning when the Qur'an is revealed. I don't think I hear anybody revealing any Qur'an now :) Besides, people were questioning like "What is ROUH? What does it look like?" Much like some of the people in this thread who want to know if the Angels are women :lol:


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How people thought or how whoever related that hadith WANTED US TO BELIEVE how they thought ? Manipulated perceptions come in real handy. Ask the Christian polemecists when they use hadith. They LOVE Bukhari.


Now surely you don't think all the thousands of different narrators in all the different hadith books (six main ones, with tons of smaller ones)... have all come together to plot a "way" of thinking? Isn't that a little bit too paranoid? Come on now...

If I follow your logic, I must disbelieve in all of history and call it satanic. With that kind of logic, no wonder we have people who live in the seventh century :roll: We have people exactly like you in the Muslim world... they are just on the opposite side "All history is corrupted by the bad, bad Jews and Chrsitians" :lol:


And you didn't get my point about certain parts of the Qur'an being frozen in certain times... unless people keep it alive (like Camels :lol: )

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Yes, these ladies could be 'maa malakat aimaan'.


No, that can never be azwaaj :) Why? Because it is not permenant. If the person chooses to become Muslim, they automatically become free. Or if someone else frees them :shock: Then... it is "bye, bye" :(

Hence, why the Qur'an always says; "before their azwaaj... OR... maa malakat aimaanihim" (see Sura 23, for example.)


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Im beginning not to think so now. I think zawjiyya is related to a one-one relationships only. Please see 30/21 where the word 'ilaiha', a singular form is used despite plurals being used throughout.


Right... but that is because God mentions "love" in that verse. As I mentioned before, we only got one heart ... as God says :)


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My humble suggestions are also to look up rijaal and nisaa usage in the Quraan. I do not believe these are related to physical gender alone.


Well, it is certainly more than the genders, that is for sure. Because you will see in instances where "among"/"from" is used for certain males and females (24:60 is a good example.)



your brother,

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zenje

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« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2003, 06:44:20 PM »
Afdher,
Do you know the Turkana? Or perhaps the Bukusu? umm they eat camel,(actually they eat pretty much what comes their way!) and they have no idea what Islam or arabs or light bulb is!
I am from Africa, you?

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By the way, I was talking about my friend -- who was an Arizonan Indian... who didn't even HEARD of camels... let alone eat them.

I guess he hasn't heard of spoon either! :lol:

None of this has anything to do with the culture you talk about. Try another one. :wink:
If they turn away, then Say: "God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne." [9:129]

afdhere

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« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2003, 07:15:18 PM »
Peace, Zenj,

Oh my God. OF all the Africans to choose, you chose Kenyans? By the way, just out of curousity, do you know what Turkana means? What about the word Baluyia, the mother nation of the Bukusites? By the way, I once had a boyfriend who was Babatakho and I used to say "OMG! :shock: You are from a people who are called TAKAKA"(Kiswahili word for "garbage," in case you don't know Swahili.)

ANYWAY, not to jump off the issue at hand, the Kenyans don't know Arabs? ROFL! :lol: This is people whose national language is based on Arabic. LORD have Mercy.


Yes, I'm African... who travelled to every African nation except one. And, of course, insha Allah, I will travel to the remaining one as well.

By the way, about my Native American friend, he actually lived one of the most industralised cities in the country; Phoenix, where he was born and raised.
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afdhere

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« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2003, 07:18:38 PM »
Ooops... The above swahili word is actually Takataka... :-P And I forgot to say that I used to say "Chokora mbiba... unta tooka Whabi? TAKATAKA, sindiyo?" (Street gangsta... where are you from? Garbage, right?) lol :lol:


Afdhere
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