Author Topic: Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot  (Read 9911 times)

afdhere

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Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2003, 12:18:51 AM »
Peace to you, Aaron,

Oh Lord... :roll:


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so who does it refer to now?


Didn't I just say "They were exactly what today we call a gay man: men who have no sexual desires for women."? :?


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what form do they normally take?


Usually, they are probably just spirits. But we know they appear to humans and Jinns (demons.) And of course to whomever they appear, they would appear that form.


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hmm, one can on guess at the body of work containing such a story.


Hadiths, Tabari's "The Victory of Islam," Waraq's "Muhammad's House" -- among others....


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i'd say relating a story about how certain people indulging in a practice were showered with rocks is also discouragement.


Ok... now you sound like extremist :-P are you comparing drinking (which is personal "problem") to rape and robery(which hurts others)? The most "direct" verse in the Qur'an about intoxicant that really affects Muslim is the one with "do not go near salat while intoxicated... ", which pretty casts a whole cast... that there are times when it is allowed ;-)

By the way, I'm someone who doesn't use any form of intoxicants (coffeine included)... but nevertheless... :)


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you think marriage exists solely for the purpose of producing offspring? please, read again. [/quore]

:roll: Again, about that "cute" idealogy? Nikkah (wedlock) ... (dallaqah)... or divorce... 'iddah (period)... all are words connected with children....

In Islam, a couple's need to terminate a marriage (divorce) is not valid until the woman waits three cycles of menstruation. And if there to be a child, the husband does not need to remarry her. On the other hand, if she is without a child... he can't remarry her unless another man marries her first.

Men are told they can marry up to four wives in the qur'an. Some scholars have argued those are only mothers of orphans, but nevertheless. Women are not allowed.

Aaron, excuse my language but what the heck without "children" is marriage? :shock:


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the point is: if i don't trust hadith, what makes you think i trust what "jewish history" tells us?


In terms of what you should "trust," you shouldn't trust anything then :) Since you are quoting the Qur'an, I assume you "trust" it. The Hadith -- regardless of what you think of them -- are any more "untrustworthy" than the Qur'an. Have you read a Qur'an before the Qur'an... Or did you write one with your own right hand (from God)?

Why do you trust the Qur'an more than the Hadith? Because the Qur'an -- as you probably know it (mas-haf) -- has appeared to the non-Muslim a few decades after Muhammad's death... as opposed to the Hadith which appears to non-Muslim 200 years later?

Or perhaps, you think the entire Muslims who lived at the time of the Hadith's printing were all unbelieving bunch... whom God forsake for you? :shock:

The problem with folks who discredit all of the Hadiths is that they forget the same arguments can be used against the Qur'an. :roll:

When we "free" minds, we should free them fairly ;-) ... Not pick and choose.



your brother,

Afdhere
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TheNabi

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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2003, 04:30:48 AM »
Peace Aaron

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they never said "we are angels we don't eat food" they just declined the offer of food at that time.

never had anyone over to your house and offered them something and they reply "no thanks, i can't stay long"?


Yes people may decline food, etc, but Aaron have you ever seen the host get frightened because their guests do not eat?

Also they were not there for a short period, they did convey information and news to Abraham while they were there before setting out to destroy the town.

This is why I say they were not men.

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?


Let me give the narrative.

And Moses said to his youth: ?I will not stop until I reach the junction of the two seas, or I spend a lifetime trying.? But when they did reach the junction between, they forgot their fish, and it was able to make its way back to the sea in a stream. And when they had passed further on, he said to his youth: ?Bring us our lunch; we have found much fatigue in this journey of ours.? He said: ?Do you remember when we rested upon the rock? I forgot the fish, and it was the devil that made me forget to remember it. It made its way back to the sea amazingly!? He said: ?That is what we have been seeking!? So they went back retracing their steps. So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We taught him knowledge from Us. Moses said to him: ?Can I follow you so that you will teach me from the guidance you have been taught?? He said: ?You will not be able to have patience with me. And how can you be patient about that which you have not been given any news?? He said: ?You will find me, God willing, to be patient. And I will not disobey any command of yours.? He said: ?If you follow me, then do not ask about anything until I relate it to you.? So they ventured forth until they rode in a boat and he made a hole in it. He said: ?Did you make a hole in it to drown its people? You have done something dreadful!? He said: ?Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?? He said: ?Forgive me for what I forgot, and do not be hard upon my request with you.? So they ventured forth until they came upon a youth, and he killed him. He said: ?Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have truly come with something awful!?  He said: ?Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?? He said: ?If I ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me in your company. You will then have a reason over me.? So they ventured forth until they came to the people of a town. They requested food from its people but they refused to host them. Then they found a wall which was close to collapsing, so he built it. He said: ?If you wished, you could have asked a wage for it!? He said: ?For this, we will now part ways. I will inform you of the meanings of those things that you could not have patience over. As for the boat, it belonged to some poor people who were working the sea, so I wanted to damage it as there was a king coming who takes every boat by force. And as for the youth, his parents were believers, so we feared that he would oppress them by his transgression and disbelief. So we wanted their Lord to replace for them with one who is better than him in purity and closer to mercy. And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphaned boys in the city, and underneath it was a treasure for them, and their father was a good man, so your Lord wanted that they would reach their maturity and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. And none of what I did was of my own accord. That is the meaning of what you could not have patience for.? (18:60-82)

How many humans have you heard of that were given such authority by God to take a mans life, and knew so much of these people's personal lives before they destroyed them?

Take care.

Joe
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek for verification & knowledge. ~> [3/190-191; 17/

mquran

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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2003, 05:08:50 AM »
Salaamun alaikum Afdhere,

Sorry for my late reply. Work commitments, Im afraid.

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Yes, I remember you. What I have always said is that the Hadith are not as perfect as the traditional Muslim makes..... nor is it as whacked ('satanic') as all these new forces claim. Like always, the answer is more moderate; the Hadith contain a lot of true and false narrations and it is up to the human being to decide, with the Quran's help.


No problem there, as usual I respect your view. To me, hadeeth is a hindrance in the path towards understanding al-quraan.

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To answer your question, because Lot was offering "love" and that was not what they were after. They were after power and subjegation.
The word azwaaj/mates demonstrates that they already were happy, as mate is the natural source of romantic happiness (i.e., significent other.)


So the gender of the offered 'daughters' doesn't come into it ?

If zawj is the word denoting a 'love-based' partnership, is there a partnership in the Quraan which isn't love-based ?

Could you elaborate further please ? I think you're on to something here but at this point, I cannot decipher it.

thanks.

AaRoN

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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2003, 08:15:24 AM »
peace

afdhere:
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Aaron, excuse my language but what the heck without "children" is marriage?


oh i never said that children is not part of the purpose, i just don't think it is the sole purpose.

since you think marriage is for children, and only something "cute" people do, does this mean you are for or against proposed legislation in canada to allow for gay marriage?

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Why do you trust the Qur'an more than the Hadith? Because the Qur'an -- as you probably know it (mas-haf) -- has appeared to the non-Muslim a few decades after Muhammad's death... as opposed to the Hadith which appears to non-Muslim 200 years later?


i believe the contents of the Quran to be divinely inspired. the more i learn about Quran, the more i believe this to be true.

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The problem with folks who discredit all of the Hadiths is that they forget the same arguments can be used against the Qur'an.


anyone is free to believe whatever they want about Quran, arguments or otherwise.

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When we "free" minds, we should free them fairly  ... Not pick and choose.


yes, so instead of picking and choosing which extra-Quranic hadith to discard as divine guidance, i thought it pretty fair to discard them all and rely on Quran.

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Usually, they are probably just spirits. But we know they appear to humans and Jinns (demons.) And of course to whomever they appear, they would appear that form.


usually...probably...sounds definitive to me!
jinns are demons?

--

i find your argument based on arabic culture weak, as i am of those who believe that the divine message has always been the same, just through different messengers. so i don't believe that the message was altered for cultures. sure, alot of people have told me "oh, well the arabs of the time did this" and "the arabs of the time did that", but i wasn't there, and my aim is to apply Quran in this time. for them is what they earned, and for me is what i will earn, after all. :)

--

joe:
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Yes people may decline food, etc, but Aaron have you ever seen the host get frightened because their guests do not eat?


do not ever or did not at that time?

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Also they were not there for a short period, they did convey information and news to Abraham while they were there before setting out to destroy the town.


how long were they there?

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How many humans have you heard of that were given such authority by God to take a mans life, and knew so much of these people's personal lives before they destroyed them?


well, isn't that what we are questioning? :)

i was just askin about the moses' companion and the angel thing because i saw the same conclusion 'reached' on 19.org forum and it seems alot to me like reachin point E without havin gone through points B, C and D.
* the Divine suffices as observer - appreciation is the message of the Divine - and those who are with it are harsh on concealment and nurture between themselves *

zenje

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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2003, 08:46:41 AM »
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The problem with folks who discredit all of the Hadiths is that they forget the same arguments can be used against the Qur'an.  

umm.. no u can't. And if you trust Qur'an to be the word of God, then I dont see how you can follow hadith, considering what the Qur'an tells you about it! :) (please visit the site and other threads for more on this beaten argument)
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When we "free" minds, we should free them fairly  ... Not pick and choose.

hmm... I think you're the one picking/choosing between this hadith and that!.. whatever's suitable.
We freed our minds all the way baby, yeah!  :D
If they turn away, then Say: "God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne." [9:129]

afdhere

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« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2003, 08:53:23 AM »
Peace, Joe,

Well said. :)
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afdhere

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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2003, 09:11:10 AM »
Wasalam, Mquran,

I don't expect replies :) So it is alright.


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To me, hadeeth is a hindrance in the path towards understanding al-quraan.


That depends on how the reader looks at Hadith. I certainly believe that is the case when the traditional Muslim looks at it perfectly inspired. (The majority of Muslims believe the "Authentic"/"Sahih" Hadith are devinely inspired and pure.) That is a very dangerous route.

On the other hand, those who look at the Hadith as complete "Satanic" are also on a dangerous route.

As far as I'm concerned, the Hadith are the history of early Muslims, begining with Muhammad. It is Human history, which means it is full of errors. But it should be noted that there are most certainly stuff in the Qur'an that God mentions in passing (like all the wrong things Muhammad does, for example) ... where the Hadiths lays out in detail.

As a human -- and a being that is naturally 'curious' -- I wanna know what "wives" made the dude see something lawful as unlawful. I wanna know what "wife" he was supposed to take after Zaid. I wanna know--- well, you get the picture ;-) What can I say.... I love drama lol.

When people like Bukhari went around collecting the Hadith, they didn't intend to collect another Qur'an (though that is certainly the case now with many Muslims... sigh... ) but rather for people like me who had NO idea what the world was like for Muhammad -- the man who recieved the Qur'an -- to understand his life... his times... how people thought, etc.

You must understand, the Messengers of God are nothing but humans like you and me. God would NEVER communicate with them on a different level. And, believe it or not, I'm far intelligent today than Muhammad was... as a man, as you are... as the next dude in today's world is. If the Qur'an was revealed to you or me or someone else living today, it would be totally a different Qur'an. If nothing else, you would see lots of lawsuits in the Qur'an :lol:


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So the gender of the offered 'daughters' doesn't come into it ?


Yes, it does. There is no point in 'subjegating' women in that time. They already were. It was the men that were humiliated and abused.



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If zawj is the word denoting a 'love-based' partnership, is there a partnership in the Quraan which isn't love-based ? Could you elaborate further please ? I think you're on to something here but at this point, I cannot decipher it.


I'm sure you mean 'romantic' love. And, yes, there are relationships without love. For example, Muhammad was asked to marry a woman... to make a point. It had nothing to do with love. Also, men are allowed to marry up to four wives, though God tells us that a man cannot love more than one since God only gave him one heart. As mentioned above, there are scholars that argue those 3 other women are supposed to be the mothers of orphans (as was the case with the early Muslims) ... which certainly means they were not in love with them at all. Just to be fathers to those children... and/or to give them more children.

That said, certainly zawj applies -- i said before -- to anyone who is a significent other to you, wheter you love them or not. Zawj is the consenting [romantic] relationship between two beings.


Hope I didn't confuse you further :?:
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afdhere

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« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2003, 09:37:12 AM »
Peace, Aaron,


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oh i never said that children is not part of the purpose, i just don't think it is the sole purpose. since you think marriage is for children, and only something "cute" people do, does this mean you are for or against proposed legislation in canada to allow for gay marriage?



:roll: It is not "part" it is almost all of it. If you can't end a marriage without first knowing if the woman is pregnant, and you have the option to not end it if she becomes pregnant, and if she becomes pregnant you no longer have any authority in the marriage, what is there left? :shock:

Let me "break" it to you:

a) if you get divorced, you must wait three months before that woman can remarry....
b) if that woman is found pregnant during that time, you can still stay maried NO questions asked, if both of you still want it....
c) if she is found clear without pregnancy, you CANNOT still stay married, no matter if you have tears of blood, unless/untill she remarries and gets divorced from that man....

This is not from the Hadiths. It is from the Qur'an. Since to end it requires the knowledge of children, the entire contract known as marriage solely depends on children. Give me a break, Aaron :)


On the second half, yes I'm personally against people getting married for any purpose outside of children. If there is a woman who is incapable of having children, because all of the material is removed (as is the case with certain cancers,) I do NOT believe that woman has ANY burdens on her to get married whatsoever.

That said, I wouldn't stop anyone from marrying... any more than I would stop anyone from becoming non-Muslim. As a human being, my job is to worry about me... and to tell people what I think, not force them (as is the case with America know, which seeks to "ban" it.) To ban it is oppressive. To promote it beside the legality of it is simply ignorance and following the "cute" message man has stamped on it :P


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i believe the contents of the Quran to be divinely inspired. the more i learn about Quran, the more i believe this to be true. anyone is free to believe whatever they want about Quran, arguments or otherwise. yes, so instead of picking and choosing which extra-Quranic hadith to discard as divine guidance, i thought it pretty fair to discard them all and rely on Quran.


Uh huh. Ok, which Qur'an, again? The mas-haf? :lol: Did you know that the third Khalif, Uthman, ordered the burning of lots of different versions of this same Qur'an? Do you know there are still surviving versions? In Iran, for example, they have Qur'an just as old as the 'major' one... which is, uhm, different :)

If you think Islam is entirely the Qur'an or the Hadith, you have another one coming. Islam is the relationship one has with God, regardless whatever text. Your job as the human is to investigate these texts... reflecting on their cultures and different meanings of same words... and all of its imperfectness.

To go ahead and just choose not one but translation/interpretation of one and call it a day... is simply... well, another "cute" thing humans like :) You see, humans are lazy hehe. They always like the easy way ;-)


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usually...probably...sounds definitive to me! jinns are demons?



Nothing is definite. And, yes, Jinns are Demons. It is just that like "Allah", folks make it sound "different." :)


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i find your argument based on arabic culture weak, as i am of those who believe that the divine message has always been the same, just through different messengers. so i don't believe that the message was altered for cultures. sure, alot of people have told me "oh, well the arabs of the time did this" and "the arabs of the time did that", but i wasn't there, and my aim is to apply Quran in this time. for them is what they earned, and for me is what i will earn, after all.


This is funny... because assuming you read the Qur'an, you know in the Qur'an the camels are allowed for Arab Muslims of that time... as they were also allowed to pass off the Sabbath... etc? Do you think Camels became more cute since Israel? Or that God just that "nah, it is okay" about the Sabbath?

In Arizona, I once helped this Muslim go back to his faith of birth (Islam) and we got to the verse that talks about the camels and he was like ... "What is that?" Shall I give you more examples... of how the Qur'an is Arabic-culture based? :roll: I know your approach is cute and all... and even amusing... but, Aaron, :)
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afdhere

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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2003, 09:41:23 AM »
Zenj,


LOL :lol: Please don't hurt yourself with your freed mind now ;-)
Afdhere Jama,
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Damon

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« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2003, 10:39:35 AM »
Peace family,

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Joe wrote:
Yes people may decline food, etc, but Aaron have you seen the host get frightened because their guests do not eat?


That verse, as far as I am able to read it, does not say that he got frightened because his guests declined his offer for food and drink. One may get frightened due to the manner one declines an offer. And, more importantly, I think he became nervous because he is now wondering who they are and what is the reason they have come to see him.

But my interpretation, like everyone elses, has an equal chance of being incorrect and perhaps Joe and afdhere may have the correct way of viewing it.

But I would like to point out that there are quite a few verses where GOD speaks of the angels by name( Malakai) and tells of specific things that these "angels" are doing. I cannot believe that GOD would not tell us these were angels that he sent to Lot and Sodom. At least not without saying that they were angels who took the form of men, like the one sent to Mary Jesus' mother.

To Aaron and Zenje,

I've been following the argument very closely for the past two days now concerning afdhere's position on hadith and his sexual preference.

From dealing with DoctorNo, we all know by now that when someone has his or her mind made up on something they believe or disbelieve(which includes us here at free-minds), then there is nothing we can do to have them see otherwise.

While following and keeping track of the argument I've been paying close attention to the logic that afdhere is operating on. That's something I've grown quite used to now.

No offense intended towards afdhere and if an offense is taken, my humblest apologies. But I'll have to be honest, from your interprations of scripture to your opinions concerning the place Arab culture has in our present day circumstances I see all of your arguments to be weak, baseless and somewhat manipulative.

Whenever we as human beings take a position on something and we firmly believe in it, we will do whatever we can to defend it and try to convince others that there is nothing wrong with our viewpoints and/or understandings.

I'm sure everyone here is able to detect my position on homosexuality or bisexuality.

Am I saying that those who are homosexual or bisexual are going to hell?

No, I'm not saying that because told us the only unforgivable(if we die in that state) is idolworship.

But when someone has made a concsience decision to engage in adultery, fornication and homosexual/bisexual acts and still calls him or herself a servant of GOD, I think that type of person is playing a very dangerous game.

My opinion and of course since I'm a student of life ans still have alot to learn I realize my opinion can actually be proven faulty.

Peace all, take care.

Damon.