Author Topic: Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot  (Read 9939 times)

zenje

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Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2003, 07:19:19 PM »
The Queer editor said:
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What I have always said is that the Hadith are not as perfect as the traditional Muslim makes..... nor is it as whacked ('satanic') as all these new forces claim. Like always, the answer is more moderate; the Hadith contain a lot of true and false narrations and it is up to the human being to decide, with the Quran's help.

They are swaying in-between, neither belonging to this group nor to that group. Whoever God will misguide, you will not find for him a way. 4:143
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Are we displaying anti-Semitism here? Until Muhammad came, it was only the Jewish people who cared about when Abraham was born

Hey Aaron... this guy has no clue! :lol:
If they turn away, then Say: "God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne." [9:129]

shamsul-arefin

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Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2003, 08:20:14 PM »
Peace be upon all,

                         I think its not nice to totally ignore afdhere's point. He might have some issues here which we need to reconsider..........

I am quite interested to know how sexual life should be of Hermaphrodite (intersexed) people. We might think that they are a defect but what if they are not..? What if they are also a natural creation to create balance in the society..? What does Quran say about their sexual life..?

And another thing I was thinking that the meaning "Lewdness" or "sodomy" are more cultural based. How would people on the region of india or asia pacific know what theses words mean...? I mean like how would those people know of the meaning who never heard about Sodom or lot..?

Peace

Damon

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Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2003, 09:15:37 PM »
Peace family,

First of all, ahdfere mistranslated 24:31.

That verse Does Not speak of anyone being born without sexual desire or preference. It speaks of those whose sexual desire has "waned" or "died down" which can occur from a variety of circumstances ranging from paralysis to old age.

Also, Aaron asked where does it say that they were angels that GOD had sent. Adhfere replied with the interpretation of "Messengers". Where and How he manages to toppsy-terve those two terms is totally beyond me.

Shamsul-Arefin said he believes that "hermaphrodites" are meant to bring some sort of balance to the broad scheme of things. We all know that GOD is the "Best Designer".

I personally do not interpret it the same way Shamsul-Arefin does. I believe GOD will allow "Hermaphrodites" as well as people born with down syndrome, born with missing limbs, siamese twins as well as scores of other of what they call "Birth Defects" as a Reminder to MANKIND that life truly is designed perfectly and had their not been a Creator of Life and of the universe we would never be concieved of and brought into this world so "perfectly".
Instead we would come into this world in much worse conditions than these "Birth Defects".

One last thing, The prior two "so-called" monotheistic "Religions" and almost all of their subdivisions and sects have embraced and "blessed" Homosexuality. Being that the "islam" that is known today is just as non-monotheistic as the other "Religions" with that same title, then why should I be surprised when people who are "Traditional Muslims" follow suit?

After all, they've followed suit in everything else namely: setting up a human being as GOD or as a partner with GOD and producing and subsequently totally adhering to man's laws in matters of their respective "Religions" instead of GOD's law. Not to mention the deliberate twisting of GOD's words and scripture.

I already knew what we were dealing with when this person was defending hadith, and now....

Keep your eyes open brothers and sisters and let's see how long before the wider Traditional Muslim world "come out" and publicly embrace and sanctify homosexuality just like the other Monotheistic "Religions".

Peace family. Stay up,

Damon.

John_From_Ohio

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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2003, 07:35:12 AM »
Peace All,

Personally, I do not condone homosexuality.  I believe it to be against God's system.  This is my *opinion* based on my current understanding of the Quran.

On the other hand, I certainly don't believe that homosexual people should be treated badly or unfairly.  Ultimately, it is for God to decide and to judge.

Peace,

John

zenje

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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2003, 08:09:12 AM »
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And the people of Lot were called such because they commited Zina, as they were with women.

 :?:

And Lot, he said to his people: ?Do you commit lewdness with what no people of the worlds before you had done?? (7:80)
?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.? (7:81)
The only response of his people was: ?Drive them out of your town, they are a people who wish to be pure!? (7:82)


?Do you approach the males of the worlds??(26:165)
?And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!?(26:166)


These verses (and more!) are so difficult to understand, I probably need some scholars to explain them! :twisted:
If they turn away, then Say: "God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne." [9:129]

afdhere

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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2003, 03:36:32 PM »
Zenj quoted a verse talking about 'with us' or 'against us' :lol: Well, here is what Muslims are supposed to be:

"... wakana baina thalika qawwaman" (... who are between that, medium) - 25.67

In other words, the practice of the Buddha: moderatism ;-) But leave it to some humans for not being able to get it. This reminds me the Arabs who couldn't understand why God would not condemn all of the Jewish people. lol


And since I have no clue, why don't you tell us those before Jews who were so interested in Abraham? :roll:



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afdhere

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Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2003, 03:38:03 PM »
shamsul-arefin, salam,

Yes, the words like "luuti"(sodomite) are actually cultural crap. In reality, a Luuti is somoene who is a follower of Lut, which means a Muslim :-)


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afdhere

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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2003, 03:57:08 PM »
Salam, Damon,

You remind me the masses who always want God to hold their hand through things :) Have you read the verse in Arabic? If not, this is what the phrase in question says:

"... aw i al-ttabi`eena ghayri ulee al-irbati min al-rrijali... " / "or the attendants without sexual desire among the men"

As for the Angels/Messengers, see 22:75 ... where God says God chooses Messengers from Humans and Angels.

And, as for other "religions," they just recognized that their faiths do not condemn Homosexuality. Like everyone else everywhere, the Arabs -- who brough Islam -- were introduced to Homophobism by the West.
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afdhere

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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2003, 04:00:17 PM »
Zenj,

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These verses (and more!) are so difficult to understand, I probably need some scholars to explain them![/quote>

No, rather... you should understand that languages that God communicates with people... totally depends on their "understandings" of that language. For example, what the Arabs believed about being a rijjal/male.

My problem with the non-Arab Western "reformers" is that they completely rely on the translations of Homophobic people like Rashad Khalifa... without understanding the Arab culture :roll:
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AaRoN

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Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2003, 05:01:17 PM »
peace

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And since I have no clue, why don't you tell us those before Jews who were so interested in Abraham? :roll:


you still missed the point. :)

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"... aw i al-ttabi`eena ghayri ulee al-irbati min al-rrijali... " / "or the attendants without sexual desire among the men"


you mean like doctors?

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show me the part of the Quran that mentions that two men may marry eachother, thus making an intimate relationship between them lawful. that's all it takes.

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i find it strange that a homosexual would be a proponent of the hadith which say to kill him as opposed to the Quran which says that those caught committing adultery outside of marriage should be given 100 lashes with a group of believers as witness.

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And, as for other "religions," they just recognized that their faiths do not condemn Homosexuality. Like everyone else everywhere, the Arabs -- who brough Islam -- were introduced to Homophobism by the West.


wow, is there anything you can't blame whitey for?

ha, the other religions recognised that their faiths do not condemn homosexuality? oh, so what, they decided that all those parts of leviticus no longer apply?

please.

how about this theory...it's all about numbers...the power of the church is waning, membership is down, so in order to get the numbers back up and keep the coffers full, acceptance of homosexuals was a financial necessity.

remember, man made clergy dominated religions actually rely on human beings to keep them in existence.

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let me ask you...

if an alcoholic is born an alcoholic, is it ok for them to be a drunk?
* the Divine suffices as observer - appreciation is the message of the Divine - and those who are with it are harsh on concealment and nurture between themselves *