gog and magog :D

[bengogo]

maybe the meaning of this verse is the door in space above the place of Gog and Magog Hills in England, and maybe this door was been opened and extraterrestrials travel across it

[Scimitar]

Assalaam alaikum,

I've noticed members are applying arabic etymology to the words Ja'jooj and Ma'jooj...

...I'd like you to consider something.

"Until, when he reached [a pass] between two mountains, he found beside them a people who could hardly understand [his] speech.

They said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, indeed Gog and Magog are [great] corrupters in the land. So may we assign for you an expenditure that you might make between us and them a barrier?"" - al kahf 93 and 94...

The subtlety of the Quran is often overlooked by us.

Ayah 93 explains that the people whom Dhul Qarnayn met living at the foot of the two mountains, were unable to immediately communicate with him because they were from a different race entirely in a far off land.

Ayah 94 explains that these people, once they managed to communicate with Dhul Qarnayn - they informed Dhul Qarnayn that "Ya'jooj" and "Ma'jooj" were causing corruptions in the land... did you miss it? or did you catch it?

Look again. These foreign people who lived at the foot of the mountains were not Arabs were they? No... they were an entirely different race and in the language they spoke - they identified the corrupters as Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj... in their own language which is not Arabic - so why do we still use Arabic etymology blindly for the two words - ya'jooj and ma'jooj???

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to see if these two identifiers (ya'jooj and ma'jooj) are synonymous with other languages instead?

Some would argue that the Quran is in a pure and clear arabic, (as in the ayah which explain that the Quran is Arabiyyun Mubeen - revealed in a pure and clear Arabic) and I agree with that - where the Quran uses Arabic... but within the Quran, the phenomenon of Linguistic Borrowing does occur - and so, where this happens, applying Arabic etymology would be a waste of time.

For the record, there is a nation on earth today which still identifies Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj in their own language as "Ya'jooj" and "Ma'jooj" and they are not Arabic, nor Aramaic nor any semitic language speaking people... they are the Chinese.

If you want proof, I can give it to you - but first you must stop using Arabic etymology to decode non Arabic words in the Quran.

Scimi

[Reee]

So what chinese word should that be? Which chinese syllable would you express in arabic as جوج?

[Scimitar]

Aha, well you see - this is where history plays its part.

Since time immemorial, the Chinese were being invaded by two groups of nomadic barbarians... the Scythian and the Tartar Mongol...

I won't lay it out for you - that would be too easy.

But if you can investigate how the chinese referred to these two nomadic races in ancient times - I guarantee you  that you will hear the words Ya'jouj and Ma'jouj in Chinese.

I'm literally giving the game away here.

This year, I release my series on Youtube which explains everything in sha Allah, in a way never seen before.

I'll link the vids in a new thread here once they are up (but it will take some time as film production is a slow and painstaking process)

Scimi

[roshan_m]

Peace Scimitar,
what you are saying is really intriguing, please keep us posted regarding the release of your videos on this matter, I'm really curious what you have to say to us..

M.

[Scimitar]

and unto you, the peace also

If Allah wills this series to get made - I promise you it will over turn many of the previously propagated theories out there, and give the viewer much to contemplate in relation to history and eschatology.

This study of gog magog, dhul qarnayn and the barrier - is classically restricted to the scholars of Islam, whom would not venture out of their comfort zones (in study) to find out what the larger world had recorded about the event mentioned in Al kahf 83-99... only on two occasions in history had this happened and both turned out to be unfruitful...

There were two expeditions sent to locate the barrier.

An early expedition to Derbent was ordered by the khaliph Umar RA (586–644 AD) himself, during the Arab conquest of Armenia where they heard about Alexander's Wall in Derbent from the conquered Christian Armenians. Umar's expedition was recorded by the renowned exegetes of the Qur'an, Al-Tabarani (873-970 AD) and Ibn Kathir (1301–1373 AD), and by the Muslim geographer Yaqut al-Hamawi (1179-1229 AD):

... Umar sent ... in 22 A.H. [643 AD] ... an expedition to Derbent ... `Abdur Rahman bin Rabi`ah [was appointed] as the chief of his vanguard. When 'Abdur Rehman entered Armenia, the ruler Shehrbaz surrendered without fighting. Then when `Abdur Rehman wanted to advance towards Derbent, Shehrbaz [ruler of Armenia] informed him that he had already gathered full information about the wall built by Dhul-Qarnain, through a man, who could supply all the necessary details ...

Umar RA was informed that the barrier was in derbent, but the location is built of brick and mortar, and not iron and qhitre... so this is not the location, and makes no sense to be the location when boats can avoid the derbent pass and enter the southern climes easily.

A few centuries later, during the khaliphate of Al Watiq:

The second expedition was the one undertaken by Sallam the Interpreter (sallam al tarjoumani). He was sent to locate the barrier with an armed guard, on the order of Khaliph Al Watiq. His journey was a long one, and he located it in Changan near Lake Lop Nor, northern Chinese territory, but commentators have explained that he must have confused the great wall of china for the barrier. However, Sallam al Taejoumani is reported to have found the barrier intact, with a gate in it, and the metallic surface was chipped so he pulled out his knife and chipped a little of the metal away and bagged it to present to the khaliph on his return journey. when he returned, hardly anyone recognised him because he'd been away many years, and the travel across harsher climes had taken its toll on him and his entourage... many of which, died on that journey. He was able to prove who he was because he had the letter given to him by Khaliph al Watiq, which exonerated him somewhat.

However, Muslim and non Muslim works examining the book of Ibn Khuradabih (the man who penned the travelogue of sallam) have often claimed that location Sallam arrived at to be in different places, all of which are geographically between Kyrgyzstan and China - a region of thousands of miles to be covered therein. So no definite answer on the actual barrier here. Not to mention, there is no mention of a gate within the barrier in al kahf...

So looking to the classical refefrences does us no justice in the modern age, but only serve to help point us in other directions if we eliminate these locations in the process.

I don't have an education, so I am an unlearnt person - but I read lots of books and have had to look into the basics of geology, geography, topography, archaeology, etymology,philology, morphology, and a whole host of other "ologies" which have helped to arm me with the necessary tools in order to solve this mystery.

Alhamdulillah, I feel it is solved for me - I have no more questions left to answer in relation to the epic in Al Kahf, and can explain away any part of it convincingly, I feel. And Allah knows best.

Hope this helps

Allahu alam.

Thank you Roshan_M for your interest in this study, if you'd like to know more, some of my posts in this thread may interest you: http://wup-forum.com/in-search-of-gog-and-magog-t25494.html but be warned, often what I put out on WUP forum, is olnly a teaser and not the full McCoy... for that, the series I plan on making will be vital in knowing why some of the info in that thread may be seen as fitan. Trial.

As they say, knowledge is power... and people abuse knowledge so I kept most of it back until I can present it in the context i believe it should be presented in.

I pray Allah Aza wa Jal guide me in this endeavour and make this work the definite explanation of the ayahs in Al KAhf 83-99. Ameen.

Scimi

EDIT: my username on wup-forum is also Scimitar

[Reee]

So you mean Meng Gu as Ma Jouj? Well thats quite far away. And for the Scythians, I haven't found anything similar. Please post the word in Chinese, if you are serious. Otherwise I will just take you as another one of these cranks.

[Scimitar]

Why would you call me a crank? Did I offend you sister? If I have I ask you to forgive me.

It's up to you - Take me as a crank then, until I prove you wrong...

since we're talking about right and wrong...

...I tell you what you did wrong. You translated the words Mongol and Scythian in google translate, am I correct?

Well, why did you do that?

Didn't you know? Mongol is a relatively new word - Genghis Khan used it to define his people in the 13th century, but, the ancient Chinese referred to them by a different association, same as the Scythian tribes.

What that "association" was, is up to you discover.

Here is a clue:

Ya'jou'ren, Ma'jou'renmin... that's how it sounds once translated... (the R is pronounced as a J)

Scimi

[Reee]

Well you are taking me for stupid. I don't use google translate, or only if I want to have some fun. Please give me the Chinese word in chinese characters, and don't tell me how to pronounce

[Scimitar]

I have no desire to give you any information at all now.

I did not take you for stupid but your own self did.

Henceforth you called me a crank when I did not deserve it. And you've not even apologised for that... Further you are demanding information from me as if I owe it to you. Get over yourself.I owe you nothing.

And Allah is witness between you and I.

From now on you will just have to wait until I release the series.

Assalaam alaikum.

Scimi