Author Topic: Speaking the salat  (Read 2212 times)


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Speaking the salat
« on: August 14, 2003, 12:57:46 PM »
I have read the reference in the quran to: "neither speak your salat too loud nor too quietly but seek a middle course inbetween" - what exactly though is this middle course - what is too loud and too quietly. Is it meant to be in an ordinary 'conversation' tone do you think?

Of course this can only be answered if we know what 'salat' means, but unlike some other rules relating to fasting and so on in the quran I notice that this doesn't have exceptions given to it i.e. if one has difficulty talking or is dumb etc. An observation, but I would assume if one has some speech impairment this wouldn't apply right?


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Speaking the salat
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2003, 07:46:00 AM »

Is it meant to be in an ordinary 'conversation' tone do you think?

Yes, to be moderate and not loud so that nobody else is heard, or too low so people cannot hear you.

I would assume if one has some speech impairment this wouldn't apply right?

I do not think so. Moses had a speech impediment and Aaron was his spokesman so things could be made clear.   :wink:

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Speaking the salat
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2003, 12:37:17 PM »

i also saw an alternative translation that said "neither too openly nor too secretly", perhaps that should be investigated.

i'll do my best to check it out, in shaa al LlaH wa illa an ya shaa al LlaH

* the Divine suffices as observer - appreciation is the message of the Divine - and those who are with it are harsh on concealment and nurture between themselves *


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Speaking the salat
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2003, 04:53:37 AM »

JOR = become plain/open/apparent/public/loud/discovered, become great/bulky, pleasingness/goodliness, clear out nearly/entirely, strove to overcome/surpass

I think I made a mistake in another thread where I stated it means "show open hostility", this was an example of usage, not possible meaning. my bad.

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Speaking the salat
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2003, 05:52:56 PM »
It depends what Salaat you are talking about.

There is Salaat the System (of following Commandments and setting them up in life) and Salaat the ritual prayer.

I think the Qur'an is saying that when you invite people to Salaat the System, do it in moderate terms (don't be overly polite and wishy washy and don't be forceful).

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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 01:27:42 PM »











The origin of the Arabic namus, (honour) is the Greek word nomos which means the law or the religious law. So the people of faith are accepted as  honourable. (The others? What do you think they are, crooks?) Some orientalists say that the Arabic word   namus is an ancient word with many meanings including money. In order to find the clues  to the origin of the ideas relating to honour-namus of the 'religions of the book'  one has to read the book written by Zayn'ud Din Ibn'ul Verdi (Tetummet'ul Muhtasar Fi Akhbari'l Beşer) where he mentions a page that he had seen, which he claims to have belonged  to the Sabians. Unfortunately we do not have the page but thanks to the researchers interested in this subject I give translation from Arabic of this page on namus:

'' Refrain from doing anything to your brother that you would not like to have done to you.

Do not show off, do not resort to showing off by mentioning your self and virtues.

Do not make vows on god's name when you are telling lies, and never start making vows right away to make someone believe.

Stick to honesty so that in your words yes will be a real yes, and no will be a real no.

Refrain from causing liars make vows on the name of God. Otherwise you will become a part of their sins, especially when you know that they will go back on their words.

Refer everything in you and everybody to God who knows all the secrets. He will be to you a just judge and a defender who shows you the solutions.

Avoid uttering superficial, wrong and negative words.

Do not cooperate with the persons who are in error.

Do not joke too much and laugh too much.

Do not criticize or reproach anybody. Do not utter negative words when you are angry, because this will put you in disgraceful situations,  bringing on you shame and disregard, sin and trouble.

He who conquers his anger, knows his word, purifies his thoughts, and keeps his self pure  will be able to defeat all kinds of evil and wickedness.

Be conscious of the blessing.

Turn to piety.

Make dignity and maturity your habit.

Try to decorate yourself with good and agreeable manners.

Be balanced in everything you do.

Do not rush especially to punish the guilty. Every person should move away immediately from those who take the wrong path, and does evil, strange things. One should not think that one might save oneself while one's relations with them continue. Let us suppose that one has managed to cover up one's doings in this world; but one should not  doubt that one's guilt will come out into the open in front of everybody in the 'day of religion' ('day of judgment')."



Sabians had daily prayers with units, bowing down and prostration (Islam has adopted this practice). They prayed three times daily; before sunrise, at noon, and at the sunset. These were obligatory (Islam in the beginning had same number of daily prayers but later on the number was increased to five times daily). There were three more that were not obligatory but thought of as proper to perform: At the second hour of the day; at the ninth hour of the day; and at the third hour of the night.

Sabians started their daily prayers by expressing their intent-resolve to pray (Islam has adopted it).

The prayer at the funeral is without bowing down and prostration (Islam has adopted it intact).

Ablution before the prayers was necessary in the Sabian faith (Islam has adopted it).

Sabians had the 'call' to prayer (Islam has adopted it).

Sabians turned towards a certain direction during their prayers: Sabians of Irak turned to the constellation of Capricorn. Sabians of our time kept this practice (Islam has adopted this practice by establishing supposedly Al-Kuds - Yerushalim - as the direction to turn to in the beginning. But the real kıbla was Bakka-Bekke-Behe).

I have written earlier that Sabians needed canonical purification of the body before each prayer (In other words, an ablution; the general word for cleanliness-purification is called taharot in Judaism and taharat in Islam). Therefore, following a sexual union, bodily cleaning is necessary. Sabians were obliged to immerse themselves fully in the flowing water to get this bodily cleaning. Urinating, passing bowels, breaking wind, touching a woman in her period, touching a woman in the forty-day period following the childbirth, touching a foreigner, and the bleeding of the nose necessitated ablution (accept touching a foreigner Islam has adopted these conditions).

According to the Mandaean branch of this belief system, prayers - seven times daily - were made compulsory to Adam, and this practice continued until John the Baptist (Yahya) changed it to three times daily.



There is fasting in the Sabian faith. It lasts for 30 days. This period is tied to the movement of the Moon. Their rule was 'see the moon and start fasting, see the moon and start rejoicing.' (Islam has adopted exactly the period of fasting and the rule of 'fasting-rejoicing').



Tthe Hagarene messenger ('Muhammad') said that Ka'ba in Makka was a Sabian temple, built by Abraham and his son Ismail-Ish'mael.  Sun temple was a square according to Masudi) and Ka'ba was given the name it has (according to Islamic sources) because of its shape. in some of the Islamic dictionaries Ka'ba is described as 'a square house.' So, Ka'ba must have been a temple for the sun.

Islamic scholars, especially Ab'ul Fida, writes that the Sabians have showed great respect towards the 'house of god' in Makka and  visited them periodically (Islam has adopted this practice). Some orientalists point out that amongst  the traditions of Hac as accepted by Islam, there exist traditions originating from the ceremonies of the Sun cult. They claim that the 'stoning of the devil' which is adopted by Islam  originates  from the practice of driving away the 'ifrit' (jinn, Satan) which pesters the Sun.



The Sabians have sacrificial offerings. Here let us refresh our memories on Abraham and his attempt to offer his son Isaac. Abraham's making an altar, arranging the logs in an orderly fashion, then tying up his son and laying him down on this pile of wood is in full compliance with the Sabian tradition, because the Sabians used to kill the child first and then burn it. Sometimes his flesh would be  taken away and mixed with dough and cooked, and the rest of the carcass, hair, bones and nerves would be burnt. But to be honest with you, this offering must have its origin in the Harranian branch of the Sabians and not in the Mandaean cult. Mandaeans had sacrificial offering of animals. They did not have human offering. So tese stories of human offering must have entered the codebooks via the story in Genesis, where Abraham is presented as a person coming to Palestine via Harran. if Abraham had really attempted to sacrifice his son, it must have been because he was wrongly believed to be a Sabian of the Harranian branch.



There is making vows in the Sabian faith. The god of Kuran likes very much to make vows on practically everything (Kuran 91:1-8; 95:1-3).



There is full body ablution in the Sabian faith. It is necessary following a sexual union. This type of bodily cleansing is fundamentally a tradition of immersion in water. Following the birth, the newborn is immersed in water. This is basically the baptism of the Christianity. In addition to the bodily ablution, ablution for daily prayers is a must in the Sabian faith. (Bodily ablution and before-prayer-ablutions are adopted by Islam).



The Sabians in Haran and those Sabians which tow the line of Haran believe in the marriage with a single women. But among the Sabians elsewhere, marriage with more than one women is possible if all the woman are treated equally. Christianity has adopted the first solution; ancient Judaism and Islam have adopted the second solution. A Sabian can only marry another Sabian. Those who married strangers or people from another belief system are considered  apostates (Judaism has accepted both rules). Marriage bond was finalized in front of the witnesses (Judaism and especially Christianity and Islam have accepted this rule).



Adultery is one of the fundamental 'prohibitions.' Judaism and Islam have very heavy penalties for adultery. It is in some cases a cause for death.



Among the Sabians living in Haran and the Sabians who recognize the authority of Haran, divorce is considered impossible without adultery or without the concrete proof of it. It is almost identical in Christianty. But for those Sabians who are understood to have  had a developed sense of ownership,  theft, not washing during menstruation, and not doing  the daily prayers were also considered as causes for divorce.



Circumcision is a very important social imperative amongst 'Hanifs',  who are definitely  the 'Sabians of Abraham' (This Sabian practice is adopted exactly by Judaism and Islam).



There are animals the flesh of which are forbidden to eat according to the Sabian faith, which are; all kinds of carcasses; all animals killed without the blood flowing out; all kinds of carnivors with divided hooves; especially pigs and dogs, birds of prey and donkeys. (These are banned. They are 'herem' in Judaism and 'haram' in Islam; Check Kuran 5:3). Pig is banned in Judaism, and consequently in Islam (The Old Testament Leviticus; Deuteronomy 14:8). The pig ban comes from those ages predating the Old Testament, and the Sabians. It is a subject of a totem ban. Pig is a totem animal. The members of a clan establish a tie between the totem animal and themselves. According to these people this totem animal has extraordinary, superhuman attributes, and protects the members of the clan. That is why this animal should not be killed, its flesh should not be consumed.  Pig was the animal of another god who was the enemy of Osiris, according to Herodotus. And that god was called 'pig.' It was the god of night and evil. In those moonlit nights pigs were sacrificed to that god and its meat consumed at these ceremonies. According to Ibn Nadim, Sabians used to sacrifice pigs to their gods once every year and consumed pig meat.



This is the taboo of the primitive communities from the days of  animism. The Old Testament story on this subject has the clues: The Hebrew god (god of Islam as well) speaks in Leviticus 17:10: "And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eats any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eats blood, and will cast him off from among his people."  What could be  the reason?   He gives the reason in Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul." So that's that! The taboo left over from the days of animism has become a taboo for the Hebrews and for the Muslims.



Interest, and profit based on interest is definitely banned in the Sabian faith. This ban was taken over by the writers of the Old Testament, and the writers of Kuran have made it a part of  their belief system. Here we need to explain what is not allowed and what should be acceptable. This interest, or profit based on interest is called 'ribă' in Arabic. This practice called 'ribă' has incurred a disproportionate responsibility on the borrower when  paying back the interest. Since this disproportionate part was not in return for something real it is decreed haram-herem  and the practice was banned. In the Arab community before Islam a person who was unable to pay back in time had to pay a second 'ribă.' Thus he was made to pay more than he borrowed. This made the rich richer, and the poor poorer. This is banned. Today the interest paid by the banks in return for deposits is nothing like this. Money has a cost. Those who use this money for their purposes has to pay the 'cost'.  Today's interest is the cost of money, it has nothing to do with the Arabic 'ribă.'

As could be seen from these pages the Sabian faith is one of those fundamental systems of religious law which had a permanent effect on the belief systems which have come later.







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Is a woman obligated to pray thrice daily
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2007, 05:05:27 PM »

This fo info only :welcome:

Is a woman obligated to pray thrice daily?
by Rabbi Dov Grossman

 A woman’s obligation to pray is very interesting. It touches on some of the most basic definitions of prayer. To leave the discussions between the greatest Jewish scholars behind the scenes, the basic Halachah1 is that a woman is obligated to pray twice daily; once in the morning, (Shacharit) and once in the afternoon (Mincha).2 The evening (Maariv) prayer, which even for men was not originally an obligation,3 was never established for women. Thus, a woman is only required to pray twice daily.4 This requirement only applies to the actual Amidah, the nineteen benedictions which constitute the main body of prayer, and are considered to be the most crucial. The other prayers which are said are not included in this obligation, but are certainly recommended for one who has the time..

She has a daily requirement to offer a prayer, any sort of prayerHowever, there is a dissenting opinion5 which maintains that a woman has no obligation to pray any specific prayer at any specific time. Rather, she has a daily requirement to offer a prayer, any sort of prayer. It can be as short as a few words of prayer upon getting out of bed, or at any other time.6

The halachah, though, follows the first opinion, and does obligate a woman to pray twice daily.

Interestingly enough, traditionally, women have followed the dissenting opinion. Whatever the reason, women would not make a point of praying the two Halachically required prayers, but would rely on a short supplication offered at their own convenience.

In recent times, however, women have become more conscious of their obligation to pray twice daily, and many have begun doing so.

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1. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 106:2; see also Magen Avraham.
2. The reasoning of the halachah is based on the assumption that there is no biblical concept of daily prayer at all; and the idea of daily mandatory prayer is entirely of rabbinic origin. (See "Is there a Scriptural obligation to pray daily?"(,) The rabbis, while introducing the concept of daily prayer, at the very same time also introduced the various forms and times of prayer. Thus, there can be no distinction between the obligation to pray daily and the various forms of prayer, as the two were introduced simultaneously. Being that the rabbis wanted to include women in their requirement to pray daily, they also had to include them in the various forms of prayer, as there can be no distinction between the two. (Although women are normally exempt from time-related mitzvot, the rabbis felt it proper to include them in the mitzvah of prayer, as prayers arouse Heavenly mercies.)
3. See "What is Maariv?" (
4. There is an opinion that a woman is obligated to pray all three prayers, but that is beyond the scope of the accepted halachah.
5. Ibid.
6. This is due to the fact that this opinion holds that there is a biblical requirement for daily prayer (i.e. to pray once a day, at any time, for any thing). The rabbis later established the various forms of prayer, i.e. nineteen benedictions, three times a day, etc. Since women are exempt from all time-related mitzvot, the rabbis did not deem it necessary to include them in their (time-related) amendments of the Torah’s requirement. Thus, women merely follow the biblical model of prayer.
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What is Jewish prayer?
by Rabbi Mendy Hecht

 A. The Hebrew word for prayer is Tefillah (pronounced teh-FEE-lah), which also means "connection." You connect to G-d by talking to Him--what is commonly known as prayer. Tefillah means to really speak to G-d like He's right there in front of you. Tell Him your problems, ask Him for help, thank Him for everything He gives you. Read from that prayerbook, but identify with its words--people who knew exactly what your life is like wrote them.

B. G-d is obviously not some despot who needs to hear little minions sing His praises daily. Tefillah is for us, not Him. Judaism addresses every little corner of life, and tefillah is Judaism's method of addressing the corner of self-improvement. When you rely on You, you self-destruct. But when you reach out to the Highest Power, you self-improve. Tefillah deepens your mind, enriches your soul, and enhances your spirituality. You can handle stress better, because you've got tefillah--a direct connection to the ultimate ISP. And although accessing G-d through that connection is only Torah-mandated thrice daily, you can log in and say a few words to Him whenever you want.

C. Tefillah format is called "Nusach" in Hebrew, and there are several hundred nus'chaot (plural for formats) in circulation today, most with differences so microscopic that they're virtually undetectable. Four popular nus'chaot are Nusach Ashkenaz (traditionally used by European Jews), Nusach Sephard (traditionally used by many Chassidic groups), Nusach Eidot Hamizrach (traditionally used by native Middle Eastern Jews), and Nusach Ari (the Kabbalistic-Ari Format, developed by Rabbi Isaac Luria, a.k.a. the Arizal).

Tefillah is a direct connection to the ultimate ISP... you can log in and say a few words to Him whenever you want
How do I pray?

1. The nitty-gritty

According to the Torah, there are three times to connect: morning, afternoon and night. The morning connection is called Shacharit, the afternoon connection is called Mincha and the night connection is called Maariv. These connections are made in the Hebrew language, and revolve around the words of the Amidah, with smaller statements made before and after. Shacharit takes about 35 minutes, mincha seven to ten minutes, maariv around ten. You'll need a prayerbook. And although you can pray at home or in most sanitary places, try to make it to a local Shul to pray with a Minyan (certain sections of the prayers can only be said with a minyan). Women are also required to pray, but are exempt from the maariv prayer, and according to other Halachic authorities, they only have to pray once a day. There are two reasons for this special dispensation, one practical and one spiritual: the Torah knows they're busy doing the mom thing and sometimes don't have time, and because they're hard-wired to G-d (unlike men), they can connect anytime. But if a woman does have time she should recite the prayers.

2. Speak the lingo

When you visit the Emperor of Brooklyn at his royal court, you'd better speak a good Brooklynese. But with G-d: when you connect with Him, you can speak any language you want--not just Hebrew. All prayer-books are in Hebrew, but most have an English translation included. Of course it's better to learn Hebrew and pray in the original because of all the mystical powers of the Hebrew letters.

3. Stick to the script

 "Say the same thing every day? I can't do that!" But, question: how do you think those Broadway performers put on the same play night after night, year after year? Answer: anyone can read the lines once or twice--it takes a professional thespian to bring them to life again and again. That's why the Men of the Great Assembly assembled tefillah the way they did--with structure, order and routine: to teach us discipline, and to allow tefillah to work its self-improvement magic. Repetition forces you to make it count each time, to really work on the words and inject them with vitality, just like on the stage.

Why is it necessary to pray three times a day?
by Rabbi Shalom Hazan

 Praying three times a day represents praising and thanking G-d at varied times in our lives. Praying in the morning -- Shacharit -- represents praising G-d when life is pleasant. Praying Mincha in the afternoon, as the sun begins to set, represents praising G-d in the face of uncertainty. An additional important point in the Mincha prayer, is the fact that it takes place (usually) in middle of the work day. Many times, we need to "stop everything" and completely change course to pray. This is a great merit that we have specifically in the Mincha prayer. Praying Maariv at night symbolizes praising G-d and realizing His greatness even in "dark" times when things do not seem right.

Why do we pray the same words every day?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus

 The Sages formulated the prayers to evoke a love and awe of G-d. We each have our subjective reality and appreciation of spirituality. However, there are objective universal emotions that must be evoked. In formulating the prayers hundreds of years ago, the Sages incorporated those passages that would pull the right strings in our souls.

If you feel you must speak to Him the way you feel, you can always add your own prayers, outside the set text. Again, this is because each person has his or her own subjective reality. If you pray without the text, you're limited to your own "box."

The world was created with the mystical powers of the Hebrew letters. Each letter contains a distinct energy; therefore, when you pray in the Hebrew language, you animate those energies
Now, as for the Hebrew-language prayers: you don't need to pray in Hebrew... but it helps.

The world was created with the mystical powers of the Hebrew letters. Each letter contains a distinct energy; therefore, when you pray in the Hebrew language, you animate those energies.

Your prayers will be answered if you pray in English, of course--there is just an added benefit in praying in the Holy Tongue in that each letter, aside from the general message of each word, contains spiritual energy.


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Re: Speaking the salat
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2007, 09:22:52 PM »
Grettings All,

Good to see the topic and posts.

I'd like to add a view. Let's see the whole verse:

17:110   Say: "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in making your connection, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.

This commandment, as I understand, is about when you call on to God using the best names, don't be too loud or too quiet; but seek a path in between.

There are many commandments in the Quran, and we should honor them. You normally always see the word salat (connection) or aqemoussalat (honor the connection) after/before/near commandments. Let's see the context and harmony.

Let's uphold/honor/do the connections the way God taught us in the Quran.

3:79 It is not for a human that God would give him the Scripture and the authority and the prophethood, then he would say to the people: "Be servants to me rather than God!", rather: "Be devotees for what you have been taught of the Scripture, and for what you studied."

Let's be "Be devotees for what you have been taught of the Scripture, and for what you studied." rather than dovoting to what people alleged to prophets. Revere God.

May God Guide.


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Re: Speaking the salat
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2007, 12:14:37 PM »
Yes, to be moderate and not loud so that nobody else is heard, or too low so people cannot hear you.
I do not think so. Moses had a speech impediment and Aaron was his spokesman so things could be made clear.   :wink:


Exactly what i wanted to write.

39:53 Say: “O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of God\'s mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.”


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Re: Speaking the salat
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2007, 01:59:36 AM »

Too loud means, "Do not cry aloud and make a show of your call to Lord"
Too low means, "Do not seek God with low spirits and faith"
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, at least to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, in such a way   that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.