Author Topic: ON WHICH TERRITORY?  (Read 6864 times)

Tunisian Man

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ON WHICH TERRITORY?
« on: February 18, 2003, 03:41:00 PM »
Salam All,
after discussing anwar and me only about the subject of "constitution", I wonder if the rest of members are afraid about discussing this matter, and if you are afraid, I just want to know why?
After discussing about Ummah concept, is there any body who want to discuss about "territory concept".
I would like to remind every body, that constitution, if you mean constitution for a state, is the juridical mean to organise governing power
and seperate this power in three powers, executive power, legislative power, and judicial power. it is also the mean to guaranty poeple freedom and human rights and solidarity between poeple, and it is the mean to express the principle on which a state is raised.
I wonder if it was accurate to put the matter of "constitution" here, and if it is accurate to consider any political concern.
I am very skeptic about it!
Salam
Zoubeir
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Wakas

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ON WHICH TERRITORY?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2003, 07:52:05 PM »
I personally am not afraid of discussing it. I have chosen not to thus far because my knowledge on the subject is very limited.

If by "territory concept" you mean land/country for us to physically live on/in, I dont think this will come about for a while yet. As our numbers grow (which they are every day) our social, political and economic influence will grow too. Pressure for reform of so called Muslim countries will grow from internal as well as external forces. IMHO, it is only a matter of time as I firmly believe that in the end the truth will prevail... especially as we presently live in the blessed information age, falsehood has nowhere to hide now.

The movement seems to be following a logical step by step process:

Literal translation of The Quran.

Whilst members research, reflect, increasing their knowledge and understanding of Islam... eventually culminating in an enlightened Ummah, capable of forming a Just constitution based on The Criterion, God Willing.
Giving a practical model to implement... which as far as I am aware has never been done before.

I found a useful site which groups verses from The Quran together by topic:
http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/topics/index.html


peace,
wakas
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Layth

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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2003, 11:42:02 PM »
Dear Zubair,

The issue of the 'constitution' has been agreed upon as one of 'prime importance' and is highlighted as one of the objectives of the Progressive Muslims movement on the site ProgressiveMuslims.Org[/b].

The project is not being worked on because it was felt that a complete 'translation' be available which is more reliable in its interpretation than what we currently have in the market (that project is now close to 60% complete)...

The reason for taking it 'slow' is that once we put together a constitution then we are in essence declaring what our undertsanding is of the 'law'...We do not want to be in a situation where we give a wroong undertsanding which will linger on for generations because we were too 'hasty' and did not study the Quran as it deserved.

Just to give you an exaqmple, I personally was under the undertsanding that Polygamy was allowed if it involved orphans...more recently after reviewing the verses on the subject in the translation, I find that polygamy may not even be allowed under the laws of the book.

What we CAN do at this stage is put together an 'outline' for the constitution and then fill the subject matter when we have gotten to that stage.

The above is just my opinions and may be incorrect.

Layth
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Tunisian Man

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now the train is on the rails
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2003, 01:14:13 AM »
Salam Wakas and Layth,
As I said it above "now the train is on the rails", just to reply to you wakas
a territory, poeple, and government are the material elements of a state,
Ummah is the immaterial element of a state, and Ummah means poeple who has a strong feeling and willing to live together on a defined territory.
by discussing on this matter with anwar, it appears, that ummah in quraan, does not mean nation, and he almost blamed me and accused me by westernism, and does not see that all countries in the world are now what we call State/Nation, unless of course things change with globalization.
Nice layth, thanks for your work, and God help you, but i have some concerns, does this constitution will take into account mainly and firstly
freedom of faith, do this constitution will take into account that not all the poeple will beleive like you and me, that our religion is Quraan and our God is God, will this constitution take into account that all the poeple will not accept the punishment of adultery as 100 slashes, and even some poeple will ask for sex freedom, will this constitution and how this constitution will accept the democracy based on political life based on political parties, or it will adopt another principle, will this constitution seperates the political power, what social well fare will this constitution offer to poeple, will be there freedom of creation (arts, litterature, cinema, theater, etc....), will this constitution allow poeple to express freely.
Will quraan as we will understand allow all this
I find the translation of Quraan interesting, but who are the main poeple concerned by Quraan, the poeple who are called muslims, are they!
and then others.
and the so called muslims are mainly arabic speaking poeple, do they need really traslation, no, since they can already read the quraan in it s original language, the majority of the articles and developped idea on this site are in english, the only site who can really be browsed in arabic is submission org, is that good, poeple saw and read that quraan is added by tow human verses, that causes me insomnia for weeks.

I am personnaly very confortable with the fact that you find that polygamy is not permitted, and will be thankfull if you just explain me this, even though we do not have polygamy in Tunisia, and my self find polygamy unjust, but salafist, are attacking us for that, and for many other things, so just they let us alone

What future has this movement, if nobody watch us, look to poeple, they are influenced day by day by the Salafist and sunni TV channels, like Iqraa, these men coming from the stone age with their barbs, and bringing poeple to the stone age, I saw friends and relatives, men and women, falling in their trap, how can we stop them, fews are in islamic word who are connected to internet, just take a look on the countries from where the members of progressive muslims are, mainly Europe and USA.
don't you see poeple walking step by step to obscurantism, I want to be optimist like wakas, but really need action.
from my side I tryed to speak to poeple about it, some are thinking I am philosophizing, some others said they worry about me, some others told me how do you know better than these respectable men who make khotba in the mosque, or who come on the TV channels giving fatwas, and indeed OULAMA, just tow of my friends are open enough to see the accuracy of Quraan alone.
But I will keep trying God willing.

thanks
Salam
there is no worse then the active ignorance-Goete-

Wakas

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ON WHICH TERRITORY?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2003, 03:34:51 AM »
I am not an optimist... I'm a realist.  :wink:
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Tunisian Man

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progressive muslims chart
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2003, 05:04:53 PM »
Salam sisters & brothers,

I am more convinced to speak about and elaborate a "PROGRESSIVE MUSLIMS CHARTER or MITHAK or DECLARATION or UNIVERSAL DECLARATION" more then"CONSTITUTION".
it is more realistic, as we are realistics :)
thanks
salam
Zoubeir
there is no worse then the active ignorance-Goete-

Danish

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ON WHICH TERRITORY?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2003, 10:40:41 PM »
I might take up on the same project like many seem to dare, that is, interpretation and explanation of the Quran in its entirety in order to satisfy my own opinions and desires. Thus forming a new group, a new constitution, a new sect, a new religion, a new declaration and so, in the pretext of God being the Only One. Nay, but then I just might be creating a whole new "MESS".

Just how many more varieties of God Alone Quran Alone do we need? Didn't Rashad Khalifa wake up the world and got killed for bringing the world together in the belief of the Oneness of God? As soon as he died, many more "messengers" erupted, just to prove that he was wrong and we are right in their own opinions.

What is happening with everyone these days? Are they getting too clever and arrogant? Why can't one leave the Quran alone as it originally was in order to simply "discuss" it and stop "inventing and creating" it again and again.

First the Sunni and their sub-sects, then the Shia and their sub-sects and now the God Alone and Quran Alone and their sub-sects and the BATTLE goes on. Who and What's next?

TheNabi

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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2003, 10:45:46 PM »
Peace

Human history repeats itself. There will always be such things. Persevere patiently.  :wink:

Joe
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek for verification & knowledge. ~> [3/190-191; 17/

Danish

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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2003, 12:40:30 AM »
Hello Joe,

Thanks for your reply. But I must ask as to persevere patiently on the grounds and rules of which translation or which 'Quran'.

Can anyone respond to my questions in the category of Quran Translation as put forth on this forum earlier.

LillyChilly.

TheNabi

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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2003, 02:17:25 PM »
Peace  :D

The Quran does not make one persevere patiently. One needs no Quran in order to do this.  :wink:

In response to your other inquery I''m suprised you yourself have no knowledge as to which one should be followed. Remember, half-assed attempts at understanding will only get you half-assed results.  :shock:

Take care.

Joe  :twisted:
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek for verification & knowledge. ~> [3/190-191; 17/