Author Topic: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE  (Read 4942 times)

Edip Yuksel

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CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2005, 08:30:03 AM »
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Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?


This is just a hillarious question, since it is asked by KGB. (Do I need to tell what KGB stand for?).

Well, for myself, let me answer this question with answers that it deserves:

1. CIA would be much happier keeping people like in the middle east so that they could continue using you and your acts as pretext to exploit its resources.

2. My organization was first funded by BAHAIS, then MOSSAD, then KGB, then CIA, and in the near future we are hoping that we will get great funding from MARS.

Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

KGB

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CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2005, 12:46:00 AM »
Quote from: "Ash Shuura"
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Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?


49:12 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.


Suspicions are honest concern after reading topics where people are trying to create doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an message. This suspicion virus created by false messenger Rashad Al Khalifah to justify deleting two verses from Qur'an and to prove code 19 a miracle. This suspicions regarding Qur'an message is growing and unfortunately Free Minds are playing a big role in promoting this sick idea of corruption of the message.

It is not spying. The messages are on the open discussion forum.

Backbite. Absolutely not. I said it right on your own forum even if I say this on different forums it would not be backbite simply because I am doing this for the purpose of keping the muslims informed about this rising fitna.
Qur'an - The Final Words of Allah (SWT).
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is The Last Prophet & The Last Messenger.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) Rahmatan lil AAalameena.
Prophet Muhammad is Rosool Allah.
Prophet Muhammad is Kathim un Nabieen.

Olusanya

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CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2005, 02:40:52 AM »
Salaam All,

One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition, wherein we begin to take sides as we can see in this thread. If indeed Islam is the way chosen for us by Allah, does it not stand on its own merit? Does Allah... or Hu's deen need champions for its cause? When we take sides in intellectual gymnastics, is that not fitna?

The structure of the Qur'an demonstrates many mathematical correspondences, the occurences of 19 being just one. Recognizing this does not make one an idolater, anymore than one who recognizes the metaphorical similarities between the Qur'an and the Matrix, both being examples of ijtahid [free-thinking].

Can we all not take our intellects/interpretations so seriously that it keeps us from being able to share each others understanding and experience?

Practice... makes perfect! The practice of Islam leads to Oneness and Unity, if our words and actions do not promote/lead to this result, we cannot claim to practice Islam, no matter how intellectually stunning or clever our debates/arguments/discussions may be.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya
?Human? is a name given to a being of consciousness that uses a flesh-bone body today and a spiritual body tomorrow. They, who will have access into heaven, will however live as a light (nuur) there.

idolfree1

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CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2005, 07:38:35 AM »
Peace be upon you Olusanya,

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One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition,


I would disagree, it is when debating(hajja) turns into baseless (no proof) arguing (jidala) that causes the problem.

We CANNOT reject debating(hajja) , the God has included this in our system.

(6:83) And this (is) Our argument (hujjatuna), We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable.

(2:197) ...wala jidala fee alhajji ...
And NO arguing in the debate...

Yes, there is nothing wrong with free thinking, but we need to start putting some proof behnd the statements, I am willing to PROVE my statements about symbolism. And by that , those who witness can see how the God proves the truth throuigh His words.

We do not take a number out of all the numbers and uphold it as if no other numbers are mentioned.

Symbolism is verified in the reading.

Olusanya

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CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2005, 08:49:42 AM »
Peace idolfree,

I agree. Yet in this particular debate I see no end. It is obvious that you and brother Edip do not agree, yet neither seems to want to leave it alone, so time is spent on a debate that has no resolution, which makes it more of an intellectual distraction than a discussion leading towards truth.
In the first ayat you posted the debate is to demonstrate truth. I cannot agree with your use of the word debate in 2:197 because I do not see the use of it in the context of the subject of the verse [maybe you can clarify your use for me]. I have followed the discussion between yourself and Edip, and it seems obvious to me that the two of you will not agree on this particular point [I understand there is a possibility I may be wrong in my interpretation, please correct me if so], so my question is... Why continue to argue the point? You both have demonstrated your points very well, but you do not agree that what the other presents is truth.
Both of you have provided what you deem to be proofs, but you do not agree with each others proofs, so the discussion falls under the discription of baseless. Why? because by rejecting each others truth, you have rejected the base of each others points.
I have observed many of the discussions within this forum and many fall into this category, because if we do not accept the interpretations or proofs that someone offers and they do not accept ours then continuing to discuss the subject will only lead to further disagreement which, in my humble opinion, is not the goal of debate or discussion.
Many of us have become just as bad as the "traditionalists/ritualists"... meaning... we are refusing to allow individuals to reach their own understanding of Islam, considering them wrong if it is not in agreement with our way of thinking or practice. Allah is the Guide, and Hu guides each of us according to our individual constitutions, levels of understanding, determination in study, etc. As bothers and sisters who practice Islam we must allow each other to come into our own understandings, in our own time. Otherwise we are just imitators.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

P.S. I think your interpretation of the symbolism in the Matrix series is profound! I saw the movies as a journey in the realization of our essential being but you took it to a whole new level. Thanks!
?Human? is a name given to a being of consciousness that uses a flesh-bone body today and a spiritual body tomorrow. They, who will have access into heaven, will however live as a light (nuur) there.

idolfree1

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CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2005, 11:38:25 AM »
Peace be upon you Olusanya,

First, thank you for demonstrating the description of one who is peacefully submissive by trying to bring unity to the discussion.

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I agree. Yet in this particular debate I see no end.


Thats why we must have faith in the unseen  :D

Actually, I don't even think there is any further debate. We are just waiting for Feb 19th to see the prophecy. My issues were people thinking they needed to join 19.org to gain some momentum. I have given my warnings about that based on my understanding. The only other debate I was interested in was salaat, but I have no interest anymore, because Edip has no time. So I will just continue with the discussions and debates already going on in that thread.

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It is obvious that you and brother Edip do not agree, yet neither seems to want to leave it alone, so time is spent on a debate that has no resolution, which makes it more of an intellectual distraction than a discussion leading towards truth.


I will discontinue right now.


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In the first ayat you posted the debate is to demonstrate truth. I cannot agree with your use of the word debate in 2:197 because I do not see the use of it in the context of the subject of the verse [maybe you can clarify your use for me].


How do you understand the word "hajja"? I have a list somewhere on this forum of both words that are normally translated as "argue". They are "hajja" and "jidala". "Hajja" has been shown to mean "debating based on proof", where as "jidala" is "arguing with no evidence from Life(al kitaab)". I will try to find where I posted them. It was quite a while ago so the thread might be far down on the list.


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I have followed the discussion between yourself and Edip, and it seems obvious to me that the two of you will not agree on this particular point [I understand there is a possibility I may be wrong in my interpretation, please correct me if so], so my question is... Why continue to argue the point? You both have demonstrated your points very well, but you do not agree that what the other presents is truth.


Well, I intend to stop here, but the reason for continuing to debate, if there was proof coming from both sides, would be to see how far the others argument could stand, but I do not see any proof coming, so I have no problem stopping.


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Both of you have provided what you deem to be proofs, but you do not agree with each others proofs, so the discussion falls under the discription of baseless. Why? because by rejecting each others truth, you have rejected the base of each others points.


We cannot both be presenting "truths", we both SHOULD be providing evidence, so we can get to the truth. We have to wait for Feb 19th to get the rest of Edips evidence.


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I have observed many of the discussions within this forum and many fall into this category, because if we do not accept the interpretations or proofs that someone offers and they do not accept ours then continuing to discuss the subject will only lead to further disagreement which, in my humble opinion, is not the goal of debate or discussion.


I agree, debating should be fruitful, but many are just too afraid to be wrong. I hope that I have shown that I am willing to admit when I have been wrong and continue to do so.


Quote
Many of us have become just as bad as the "traditionalists/ritualists"... meaning... we are refusing to allow individuals to reach their own understanding of Islam, considering them wrong if it is not in agreement with our way of thinking or practice. Allah is the Guide, and Hu guides each of us according to our individual constitutions, levels of understanding, determination in study, etc. As bothers and sisters who practice Islam we must allow each other to come into our own understandings, in our own time. Otherwise we are just imitators.


I guess we have a difference of opinion on "hajja"(debating). There are levels of understanding, those that are on higher levels must not conceal what was inspired to them. WHat is our purpose here if not to study and debate? Again , I liken it to martial arts, you have to practice your craft.

I think the issue might be HOW LONG do we debate, because Musa certainly debated the magicians, Abraham certainly debated his fathers traditions, etc.

Noah debated wrong (called to the God) day and night in secret and public. Unless it is though that my position is wrong, then I don't see where I error.


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P.S. I think your interpretation of the symbolism in the Matrix series is profound! I saw the movies as a journey in the realization of our essential being but you took it to a whole new level. Thanks!


Thank you for the kind words, there are actually two threads, the very long one was something I wrote a while back, but my understandings have increased since then. So everything I wrote might not be exactly the same as before.  

I was thinking it is based on the book we call "Quran" because there are indeed references to certain verses, but  it is really deeper than that.