Author Topic: CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE  (Read 4819 times)

Ash Shuura

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CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2005, 01:30:41 AM »
Quote from: "idolfree1"
Although the God states not to conceal the truth when you know.


Salaam,

We should also give him the benefit of the doubt. I haven't verified this but I suppose the God does not ask us to let the cat out of the bag when there is the question of allowing the disbelivers to deceive themselves.

regards

idolfree1

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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2005, 01:43:17 AM »
Peace be upon you Ash Shura,

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We should also give him the benefit of the doubt. I haven't verified this but I suppose the God does not ask us to let the cat out of the bag when there is the question of allowing the disbelivers to deceive themselves.



Isn't confining the cat in the bag CONCEALING THE TRUTH?

I just finished saying that the God states NOT TO CONCEAL the truth when you know. THAT is verified.

Rejectors will  always decieve themselves, even if you show the ALL OF THE SIGNS IN THE UNIVERSE, says the God's message. SO do you know see clearly? Or do you think that if Edip tells us what will happen, that the rejectors have a power equal to the God's to stop the so called prophecy?

Edip Yuksel

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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2005, 02:41:26 AM »
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Peace be upon you Edip,

WHat kind of game is this? Did the God say to beat around the bush? Or did the God say that righteousness is coming through the proper doors?

The God says do not conceal the truth when you know.

Do you wish for Ali Sina to have an accident before Feb and not get a chance to witness your great prophecy and not have a chance to be changed by this "parting of the sea/flood/brimstone and fire"?

Is this prophecy based on a 19 formula?

...

I guess we will all have to wait since Edip seems to want to hold us in suspense until Feb NINETEENTH.

Although the God states not to conceal the truth when you know.

...

Isn't confining the cat in the bag CONCEALING THE TRUTH?

I just finished saying that the God states NOT TO CONCEAL the truth when you know. THAT is verified.

Rejectors will always decieve themselves, even if you show the ALL OF THE SIGNS IN THE UNIVERSE, says the God's message. SO do you know see clearly? Or do you think that if Edip tells us what will happen, that the rejectors have a power equal to the God's to stop the so called prophecy?
 

Dear Idolfree:

Perhaps I spent more time with Ali than he deserved and I delivered the message perhaps with too many words than it was necessary.

However, you seem to have no experience or personal taste with a sophisticated debate. Perhaps, you would chasite Abraham too for playing a prank on idolworshipers. Perhaps, you have some problems with verses telling disbelievers "wait, I am waiting too."

May be, because of your allergy to the number 19 you have allergy to mee too and you want to find an excuse just to pick on me.

Listen, my too serious and too grumpy old friend :D  :

My debate was partially theological, philosophical and partially an intellectual game, since my main opponent was not a serious investigator of the truth, but a "father of flame." My "prophetic" coded message had several goals. Here are some of them:

To create suspense and interest.

To move the debate from his forum, which is invested with foul-mouthed trolls, to my forum, which moves obscene or pure adhominem attacks to another forum called TRASH.

To start a new debate on a topic that was not debated but repeatedly referred to by innuendos and mockery.

To get the upper hand in a war.

You might not understand any of this. That's okay. I think we have different ways of eating yoghurt. That's okay too.

Peace,
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

idolfree1

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CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2005, 05:34:20 AM »
Peace be upon you Edip,

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Perhaps I spent more time with Ali than he deserved and I delivered the message perhaps with too many words than it was necessary.

However, you seem to have no experience or personal taste with a sophisticated debate.


And your information is based on what?


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Perhaps, you would chasite Abraham too for playing a prank on idolworshipers.


A prank? Is that what you call what Abraham did? SInce when does the prankster ANNOUNCE HIS PLANS?

(21:57) "And by The God, I will manipulate/fight/(destroy) your idols/statues , after you turn giving (your) backs."  

Abraham told them EXACTLY what he intended to do, how does that qualify as a prank? So Abraham , KNOWING that they knew he did it told them the BIGGEST ONE did it, to expose thier foolish ideas.

Please tell me how your prophecy relates to Abrahams strategy. And so that you are sure, since you want to try to DEFINE my thinking to  everyone, NO, I would not chastise Abraham  for his wise strategy. Only one blinded by an idol would do such a thing.


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Perhaps, you have some problems with verses telling disbelievers "wait, I am waiting too."


No, I have no problem waiting for the effect that follows every cause. I have no problem waiting  to see who was correct in thier philosophy and who was wrong. But you are trying to rework the context  to make it seem like we should wait for some prophecy, and that is what I have a problem with.


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May be, because of your allergy to the number 19 you have allergy to mee too and you want to find an excuse just to pick on me
.

THis is a lot of maybes, a lot  of guessing.  I have an allegy to too  much cat hair in my eyes, thats the only allergy I can think of. Regarding "thier count", I have no allergy  to that, I understand it well as a TRIAL for rejectors. Regarding you, I have stated many times it is not personal, I disagree with your philosophy, YOU are just a vehicle for the philosophy that I reject. SO as long as you try to promote this 19 miracle, especially in a forum that I frequent, you  will see resistance to your plans.

I am all for mathematics, it plays a HUGE part in understanding this book(LIFE ITSELF). BUt it is not restricted to the number 19, all numbers are included in mathematics.

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Listen, my too serious and too grumpy old friend  :


Please stop trying to define me. I am at peace, and persistent against falsehood. But yes, I am very serious about these topics discussed here, you should be too.

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My debate was partially theological, philosophical and partially an intellectual game, since my main opponent was not a serious investigator of the truth, but a "father of flame." My "prophetic" coded message had several goals. Here are some of them:

To create suspense and interest.


Well  I hope you have a good ending to keep him there.

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To move the debate from his forum, which is invested with foul-mouthed trolls, to my forum, which moves obscene or pure adhominem attacks to another forum called TRASH.


Yes, they are foul mouthed there, but does that mean one issues a prophecy  to TRICK THEM into going somewhere else? We should be those who have the INNER PEACE to deal with mere WORDS!  :D  Words! Thats all they are. Did Musa TRICK Pharoah to go to his house and "debate", or did he do it in front of those "foul mouthed trolls"? And even convinced some of them to see his way. At  the very least we are instructed to turn our bakcs on the ignorant and say PEACE, not trick anyone with a prophecy to happen on the NINETEENTH day of feb.

That suprises me from a man who claims to be MASTER DEBATOR and is in the midst of trying to get "free minds" to join with him knowing that many in free minds don't want anything to do with the 19 "miracle". But you chose to use that method to get Ali Sina in some "trap". I hope that all are paying attention to how you cannot be without  your partner, 19.


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To start a new debate on a topic that was not debated but repeatedly referred to by innuendos and mockery.

To get the upper hand in a war.

You might not understand any of this. That's okay. I think we have different ways of eating yoghurt. That's okay too.


Although you repeatedly try to discredit my character, I understand very well what you  did, now that you have explained it further, and I disagree. Where is that example in our criterion?

Trickery and deciet? NO thanks, righteousness is attained by being straight foward, not applying smoke and screen tactics used by wicked governments.

YOu had no time to discuss salaat with me, but you have time to play tricks and games with Ali Sina.

Well, that your choice, peace be upon you  just the same.

Edip Yuksel

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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2005, 07:16:42 AM »
Dear idolfree:

First, Abraham did not tell them that he would breake the idols. He not only left them in suspense, he secretly broke ther small idols and suprised them. I am not exatcly sure about English cannotation of the word prank, but as far as I know, I can say what Abraham did was a philosophical prank, trick or trap, if you wish.

As for the reason why I am not willing to discuss the issue of Salat with you is because I do not want to give you the opportunity to use that debate to flame the division you are trying to promote.

I do enjoy debating with people. However, you should not decieve yourself that I am afraid of debating this issue with you; but I am trying to avoid an argument with someone who appears to be gripping a black-and-white sword of zeal in his hand ready to chop my head off. I am not scared of losing my head, but I am concerned that you might breake your sword from swinging it too recklessly and you may regret afterwords. If that fighter were someone that I considered my enemy, then I would go ahead and fight back with my rainbow colored sword. But, if I believe that the challenging person is someone I should consider my potential ally and brother, then I am hesitant to take that challenge. Do you understand? :idea:  

NOW:
Your prayer is for you; my prayer is for me.

TOMORROW:
When you cool down, we might debate the issue.

Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

idolfree1

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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2005, 07:48:11 AM »
Peace be upon you Edip,

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Dear idolfree:


Somehow "dear" does not seem to match up with the greeting instructed by the God, but there is no compulsion.

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First, Abraham did not tell them that he would breake the idols. He not only left them in suspense


(21:57) "And by The God, I will manipulate/fight/(destroy) your idols/statues , after you turn giving (your) backs."

(21:59-60) They said: "Who made/did that with our Gods? Surely he is from the unjust/oppressive." They said: "We heard a youth/adolescent mentioning them, is said to him, Abraham."

Will you still hold the view that Abraham did not tell them?

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he secretly broke ther small idols and suprised them.


He told them exactly what he was going to do, they were suprised that he really did it because they assumed that everyone should FEAR thier gods. That is why when they saw that he really did it, they were able to figure out who had done it, they started to recall that Abraham TOLD THEM exactly what he was going to do.


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I am not exatcly sure about English cannotation of the word prank, but as far as I know, I can say what Abraham did was a philosophical prank, trick or trap, if you wish.


I would call it a strategy, but how does it apply to what you did by  making a prophecy for feb 19th? Musa did not make a prophecy to get out of the debate witnessed by Firauns court. Since when is trickery the strategy used? The God's clear signs are enough.


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As for the reason why I am not willing to discuss the issue of Salat with you is because I do not want give you the opportunity to use that debate to flame the division you are trying to promote.


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I do like debating with people and do not decieve yourself that I am afraid of debating this issue with you


Where have I said you were afraid? My thoughts are that you are too focused on 19, not afraid, thats not a word I would choose for you.

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but I am trying to avoid an argument with someone who appears to be gripping a black-and-white sword of zeal in his hand ready to chop off my head with it.


Nonsense, my message is PEACE, and can be clearly documented throughout this forum.


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If that fighter were someone that I considered my enemy, then I would go ahead and fight back.


Well, in this forum, we understand the God's instructions of debating(hajja) and not arguing(jidala), so we debate to get at the truth of a matter. We don't describe it as fighting.

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But, if I believe that the challenging person is someone I should consider my ally and brother, then I am hesitant to take that challenge. Do you understand?


No, based on the info I gave above. Perhaps you should stop looking at me as a "fighter" or a "challenging person" and it will clear your perception. Further, I do not ALLY with your philosophy of 19, just so we are clear on that.

naxus

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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2005, 08:46:06 AM »
Peace to every one here by this post i will convey my message to bro yudip n idol free i think it will be very nice to have a debate on salat b/n u guys i think we will learn alot from both of u guys disscussion peace

Edip Yuksel

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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2005, 02:46:21 PM »
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That is why when they saw that he really did it, they were able to figure out who had done it, they started to recall that Abraham TOLD THEM exactly what he was going to do.


Dear idolfree:

You are misinterpreting the verses. Abraham never told them what he would do specifically or exactly. He told them that he would do a TRICK, TRAP, or A PLAN against their idols. The word KaYD, as you want us to believe, does not mean destroy, smash, break. Most likely they never expected him to break them; they expected something silly, as some people are expecting something silly from my "prophecy"!

They had no clue what he meant with it. Otherwise, they would most likely guard them day and night, imprison or banish Abraham before he fulfilled the act. You are insulting Abraham's intelligence by claiming that he told people that he was going to break their idols, risking his safety and success of his pedagoical plan. You are also undermining the devotion of idolworshipers to their idols; if they new exactly what Abraham was going to do, they would not sleep on his threat.

Besides, his people did not recall that Abraham was going to break their idols, they recalled that Abraham was talking against their idols. Recalling someone talking against something is different than recalling someone doing a particular act against something. You are confusing both.

Abraham gave them a VAGUE warning and surprised them by morning. What I am doing with Ali Sina is very similar to that.

As for Moses, are we required to parrot him? Are we limited with what Moses or another messenger did? I do not think so. I believe that as long as the means of delivering the message does not violate a divine principle, it is fine. Otherwise, using your logic, I can site the names of 27 messengers and their delivery of God's message and accuse you of following a wrong strategy by discussing God's message via computer; since none used the computer, except the most recent messenger who you deny. None of the messengers in the Quran asked his followers to mimick them or the acts of previous messengers.

I see that we have important methodological difference. You tend to even prohibit or reject the word DEAR as a greeting. I started having a good idea about your attitude, comprehension, and position on issues.

I guess we would not be able to work together as a united force. But, this does not mean we have to work against each other, eiether. Perhaps the best strategy is not discussing anything with each other. Of course, you are free to criticize me.

Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
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www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

Idris

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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2005, 02:50:47 PM »
peace be upon all,

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Your approach to the Quran, appears to be too literal


I swear to The God, I never thought I'd ever see anybody say this to you Kyle  :lol: Edip check around for his posts and it won't take you too long to see why
Workers and their families may starve to death in the New World Order of economic rationality, but diamond necklaces are cheaper in elegant New York shops, thanks to the miracle of the market.
-Noam Chomsky

Edip Yuksel

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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2005, 02:59:31 PM »
Dear Idris:

Without seing your answer and your quotation of my reference to idolfree's literal approach, I edited and deleted thath part. Not because I changed my mind or learned something about him, I just did not want to be too confrontational. Unfortunately, you snatched that sentence with a twitzer while I was deleting it; and now I am stuck with it :cry:

If idolfree (Kyle?) is not too literal then he is more complex than I thought. I wish I had time to learn more about him and analize his mind; but, unfortunately I am too busy these days.

Peace and blessings be to you and to idolfree.

PS: Why do you think that Idolfree is not starting his mails with Bismillah, like Solomon?

Edip
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www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).