The Smoke Article

[Layth]

Peace,

On the FM website there is an article 'The Smoke' which theorizes the meaning to be that of a nuclear war and even goes on to place together some events and dates to form a certain hypothesis.

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/wwiii.htm

Should this article be published on the website?

Or should it be confined to the forum?

I am open to hear opinions on this...

[shamsul-arefin]

well, I dont think its necessary to remove but I dont agree with the article either. Its a theory..speculation. It might make some ppl to think..

My speculation ofthe smoke is more towards Super volcanic thing


peace

[Layth]

Peace,

Just to have a specific time-line, I will leave this poll running till Monday (10/1/2005). Then the resulsts will be acted on (God willing).

[Wakas]

peace All,

No, it should not be removed. Articles which are more speculative than average (such as this one) should have an individual disclaimer (even though there is one in the main articles section). That is my view.


Wakas

[beatnik]

I agree with Wakas, it should have a disclaimer before it ensuring the reader is aware it is the author's personal opinion, and not necessarily something believed by all muslims/freeminds/whatever we're called this week  

[ayman]

Peace brother Layth,

Whether the article is published on the web site or on the forum, either way is fine and I trust your judgment. I think that either way the following are some of the major unresolved issues that have to be addressed, either in the body of the article or in a section for "Directions for Future Research" or something similar at the end of the article, if unable to address them at this time.

1. Is the messenger in 44:14 the only one described as "educated"?

other messengers were always called ?magician, poet, soothsayer, crazy? but never ?well educated?

The justification for accepting RK as the messenger in 44:14 based on the assumption that no other messenger is described as "educated" (in the passive by someone else) is not warranted based on 16:103 where the messenger who brought the Arabic reading is accused of being "taught/educated" by someone else:

16:103. And indeed We know that they say: "It is but a human that is educating/teaching him." The language of the one they falsely attribute to is non-Arabic, while this is a clarifying Arabic language.

2. The early copies of the great reading did not have any separators (stars or asterisks or numbering). The present alleged verse separation locations were not agreed on until as late as 1924. Those who make conclusions based on verse separations assume that the separators were divinely inspired. What evidence is there that divine inspiration is what guided the clergy to decide many hundreds of years after the fact to have a separator before "fartaqib" and after "mubin" to make "fartaqib yawm taati alsamaa bidukhan mubin" 44:10?

There is no excuse for not addressing issue 2 because early copies of the great reading are available on the internet and in museums for everybody to verify what I am saying. One can even find a picture of a page of the Tashkent copy on the submission.org web site and it confirms what I am saying.

3. Where does the great reading describe itself as being in "verse" format? Does the word "aya(t)" mean "verse" or "sign"?

4. What evidence is there that "alm", "alr" are not connected words, while they are clearly written as such? Also, from Chapter 42 it is clear that the words at the beginning are words and not initials and the separation and joining is not haphazard because of the deliberate separation between "ﻢﺤ" and "عسق" when they could have been written as:

حمعسق

5. There is absolutely no mention in 74:30-31 of any relation to alleged initials or that we should start counting the letters of the book.

6. The "count"/"3ida(t)" of 19 and not the number/"3adad" 19 is described as "fitna"/trial. Thus, it is clearly those who "count" 19 who are being tried.

7. Here is the question that anyone who reached any answers based on counting 19 had to ask first: "What did The God intend with this example". Who asks this question in 74:31?

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

[Edip Yuksel]

The early copies of the great reading did not have any separators (stars or asterisks or numbering). The present alleged verse separation locations were not agreed on until as late as 1924. Those who make conclusions based on verse separations assume that the separators were divinely inspired. What evidence is there that divine inspiration is what guided the clergy to decide many hundreds of years after the fact to have a separator before "fartaqib" and after "mubin" to make "fartaqib yawm taati alsamaa bidukhan mubin" 44:10?

Brother Ayman raises some good and interesting points in his reaction to Layth's article. I will only deal with the point quoted above.

I have seen several copies of very old manuscripts kept in London, Topkapi Museum, and Sulaymania Library, and noticed that verses were distinguished from each other by big dots, mostly colored in red. The fotocopies of those copies usually do not show those dots, perhaps because of their light colors.

If verses were distinguished by dots from the beginning, then they were automatically numbered, since numbers are just order of different units.

Another point, which I will make it in haste, is many people's lack of accurate information about the history of mathematics and their skepticism and even allergy regarding Gematria or ABJAD; the ancient order of the Arabic alphabet, which was used during the time of Muhammad as the number system, like Roman numerals.

Thera are numerous sources that historically and arhchologically support this fact. I recommend everyone, including brothers Ayman and Layth, the following book by a prominent scholar. It is the best book on this subject:

The Universal History of Numbers, Georges Ifrah, Wiley, 2000.

I would like to quote extensively from the book, but now I have to get ready for the bed:)

Well, just atfer posting this answer, I noticed Ayman's objection to the mathematical system based on the number 19. His bias and lack of knowledge on the subject is evident, and it will take perhaps another book the size of Running Like Zebras to flush out all his misconceptions, misunderstanding, false assumptions and phobias.

I recommend him to visit the following links with open mind:

http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/saqar.htm

and

http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/zebras.htm


Peace,
Edip

[shamsul-arefin]

peace to all

I think every article should have a disclaimer of the writer as these are the thoughts/analysis of that person only.

peace

[ayman]

Peace brother Edip,

Thank you for your response.

The early copies of the great reading did not have any separators (stars or asterisks or numbering). The present alleged verse separation locations were not agreed on until as late as 1924. Those who make conclusions based on verse separations assume that the separators were divinely inspired. What evidence is there that divine inspiration is what guided the clergy to decide many hundreds of years after the fact to have a separator before "fartaqib" and after "mubin" to make "fartaqib yawm taati alsamaa bidukhan mubin" 44:10?

Brother Ayman raises some good and interesting points in his reaction to Layth's article. I will only deal with the point quoted above.

Actually, in the latest article, brother Layth does good by avoiding the murky waters of verse numbers. This was not the case in his WWIII article though and that is the article that #2 was addressing.

I have seen several copies of very old manuscripts kept in London, Topkapi Museum, and Sulaymania Library, and noticed that verses were distinguished from each other by big dots, mostly colored in red. The fotocopies of those copies usually do not show those dots, perhaps because of their light colors.

If verses were distinguished by dots from the beginning, then they were automatically numbered, since numbers are just order of different units.

Many of the early manuscripts of the great reading do not contain verse separators such as dots, stars, or numbers. But even those that do contain some kind of seperators, such as the ones you saw, if you examine them, you will see that they are in different locations and at much wider intervals than the present copies of the great reading. You can see this here:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/yem12a.html

As you can see above, there is a separator in 17:20 but none at what is currently 17:21 and 17:22.

Below one can see that there is a separator where 5:118 is today but there is no separator where 5:117 and 5:119 are today.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/yem23a.html

Again, when the man-made separators were added, their purpose was  ease of reading and reference. For example, so that the reader can stop and take a breath at a certain location while reciting and can more easily refer to a certain passage. It is only now that people believe that the separators were divinely inspired.

In the following manuscript from the 2nd century there is a separator between Chapter 8/9 and Chapter 10, but no separators between alleged verses at all:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/yem2a.html

In fact, even in the copies of the great reading where there are some separators, the spacing suggests that separators were squeezed in later. They were also done using a different type of ink and they exhibit different aging pattern to the rest of the text and hence cannot be dated to the same period as the original text.

The above are just some examples and there are plenty more.

As for lack of information on mathematics, looking for patterns based on any number and then only presenting the results that show a pettern and not the many other failed trials where one did not get the pattern is not mathematics. It is called numerology and that is what Carl Sagan tried to explain that to you.

Thus, in order to make it mathematics, you have to document BOTH the successes and the failures and use a standard methodology that doesn't temper with the data.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

[mh]

peace to you all,

i left a time ago and people were studying the verses and now i see that people are getting back to counting them!

take care.

God bless.

[Layth]

Peace,

The article has been removed...

it may however be read on the forum:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2836

[Edip Yuksel]

peace to you all,

i left a time ago and people were studying the verses and now i see that people are getting back to counting them!

Dear mh:

This is an impressive sound bite, but it ignores and hides many important things that the number 19 addresses. As long as you have a knee-jerk caricaturistic reaction to the issue, you will never be able to either comprehend or reject it properly.

I challenge you or any other unappreciative or enemy of the code 19 to justify your faith in ALL the verses of the Quran, including 9:128-129. I will chase you untill you seek refuge in the NUMBER of CROWDS or mishmash collection of hadith books for your defence. I know what I am saying and you will raelize it when you see yourself hanging on the NUMBER of the crowd or a hadith to justify your faith in the Quran.

It is God's blessing for those who decided to dedicate their religion to God alone by upholding God alone to be supported by such a prophetic miracle that not only strengthen their faith in the Quran, but also LIBERATE them from relying on the credibilty of previous generations and their transmission. It also provides them with a great physical evidence to defend their faith against the attacks of disbelievers.

If you are ready for my challenge, then please LIST your REASONS and EVIDENCES why you believe in ALL verses and words contained in today's versions of manuscript called Quran, or why verses 9:128-129 are part of the Quran, or the the book of recitation.

Peace,
Edip

[zenje]

Peace Edip,

I will chase you untill you seek refuge in the NUMBER of CROWDS or mishmash collection of hadith books for your defence.

Do you see your obsession and emotions change when you talk about this subject? Your articles and posts on any thread are calm and collected. I saw some of your threads on FFI and I admire your cool. But when you start debating the 19 issue, or especially when some people disagree with the theory, it seems like all goes awry. :? Have you noticed it? :idea:

[Elena]

As long as you have a knee-jerk caricaturistic reaction to the issue.../..I challenge you or any other unappreciative or enemy of the code 19../..I will chase you untill you seek refuge../.. It also provides them with a great physical evidence to defend their faith against the attacks of disbelievers../..If you are ready for my challenge...

This agressive addressing reminds me of if a person asks something, it is not a duty to answer him/her. The same for  pompous challenges.

[Edip Yuksel]

Dear Zenje:

Should I thank you for you chastising me by picking on the word "chase" in my posting? I would like to; but honestly I cannot thank you. Here is the reason.

First, I performed my mirror tactic or followed Newton's Third Law: for every action there is equal and opposite reaction.

My temper on this issue in fact is very mild, compared to what I and my comrades have been subjected to regarding my faith on this issue. The action or reaction of those who are bilind to the number 19 is extreme, not mine. Some of them even went beyond verbal attacks, they killed his discoverer; my close friend. My life has been threatend and I am attacked physically, insulted, accused of many false tihings, and mocked by many people for my testimony to a great prophecy and miracle of the Quran for about two decades.

Perhaps, the magnitude of our action and reaction is increasing by feeding each other. But, what made me chase this particular person until the NUMBERS of the CROWD, whic I believe he is relying on, was his making a cheap mockery with my testimony of the role of NUMBER 19 in the Quran.

If you cannot hear the snobbish mockery in his sound-bite, then you are right in your chastising me. But, if you think that challenging and intellectually chasing a mockerer is an irrational reaction then I beg to differ.

I finally reacted to numerous letters posted here in several threads containing mockery with my belief system.  I did not want to start a debate on this issue, but I received constant criticism, occasional insults and mockery.

So, arguably I might have lost my temper a little bit in my reaction, but you have lost your objectivity as a judge.

Peace,
Edip

[Ash Shuura]

So, arguably I might have lost my temper a little bit in my reaction, but you have lost your objectivity as a judge.

Peace,
Edip

Peace Edip,

What could the reasons be behind an emotional reaction on what ought to be faith based on facts and reason? Do you think it says anything about whether faith is based on more emotion than facts or otherwise?

Thanks

[zenje]

Peace Edip,

I was making an observation on this issue, not entirely based on this one post. I have seen this before. I apologize if I sounded judgemental, that wasn't my intention. I was trying to make you see yourself. I'm sure with the constant barrage of attacks and mockery, you'd be used to it by now and as usual 'be cool' in you posts. Instead, it sounded like you wanted to hunt down the perpetrators and kill every one of them. I hope I'm clear.

Again... Peace.

[Damon]

Peace all,

I personally see it as being both pointless and counter-productive to keep going back and forth on this issue. I don't see why people just can't agree to dis-agree on this matter and move on.

Pointless.....truly pointless.  :cry:

GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon.

[Ash Shuura]

Peace all,

I personally see it as being both pointless and counter-productive to keep going back and forth on this issue. I don't see why people just can't agree to dis-agree on this matter and move on.

Pointless.....truly pointless.  :cry:

GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon.

Peace Damon,

Not clear which posts you are referring to. However, what is wrong with examining other peoples knowledge? Sometimes to grow we need some outside input whilst being critical. The other person may take part or not its cool.

[Zlatan]

Peace

This is an impressive sound bite, but it ignores and hides many important things that the number 19 addresses.
I challenge you or any other unappreciative or enemy of the code 19 to justify your faith in ALL the verses of the Quran, including 9:128-129.

It is God's blessing for those who decided to dedicate their religion to God alone by upholding God alone to be supported by such a prophetic miracle that not only strengthen their faith in the Quran, but also LIBERATE them from relying on the credibilty of previous generations and their transmission. It also provides them with a great physical evidence to defend their faith against the attacks of disbelievers.

This is one of the ironies of the code 19... not only that it doesnt prove and preserve the book but is, if taken seriously and faithfuly, an obvious proof to the book`s corruption.

The code actually proves the corruption of the great reading...

While i have studied it  i have found out that almost there is not a single feature- words, initials etc. counted, calculated, used in the code theology-without being some excess in the words or leters or without some cheating in the method.... or without being exception(inclusion and exclusion etc)this and that, for which the followers of the code say "disregard it while counting(?!!)" or "we should count this way and not that way" or "we should exclude it from counting" (from this reason or that) etc. etc. etc.

The most glaring example for this are counts of bismillah`s words and counts of initials...

Even after the deletion of 9/128-129(!)-the fact is that NOT A SINGLE count of bismillah`s word is 19 divisible...

19 divisible counts are product of manipulations with counts -the counts are actually doctored-false...

Also, counts of initials...There are many errors in Khalifas counts and methods of analysis and this is admited by other researchers- proponents and opponents. Rashad himself changed his counts during years many times and according Edip Yuksel Rashad was also aware of these errors after they were indicated by critics and they intended to make a new research to resolve the problems but early death stopped him. To this day I am not aware anyone has solved these numerous difficulties...

Having this in mind and analysing counts of initials in a consistent way, the fact is that no matter how counts of initials are analysed we get nothing... in the best cases we get only a few 19 divisible hits.

An objective statistical analysis shows only normal statistical variations of 19 divisibility- that is-inside the law of the probability. That is, in regards of 19 divisibility, the counts of initials are nothing special, nothing significant and not to speak about divinity or miraculousness of these counts!

"The code", that is, the datas presented and considered as the code actually proves that there is no code embeded in the scripture OR that the scripture is totally changed and corrupted and full of false insertions even after corrections made by Rashad.

I only wonder what next will be deleted under the disguise of the divine preservation of the book.

Besides that all, how it happened that so important doctrine -code 19- which have so important and crutial functions preserving, proving, protecting, purifying of the scripture etc is not mentioned at all in, as the code believers like to say, fully detailed Quran?

The God mentions in the great reading diferent sort of details in regards of all things, it detaily describes the signs of Moses which occured in the past, but it forgots(!) to list such important functions of no 19 -preserving , protecting, prooving etc. It even does not say that code 19 is a sign??!!

So accordingly, if the code is the truth then it only further proves the corruption of the book - the verses that proves and supports the code must have been be deleted as well?

best wishes, Zlatan

[mquran]

Salaamun alaikum Zlatan, all,

The God mentions in the great reading diferent sort of details in regards of all things, it detaily describes the signs of Moses which occured in the past, but it forgots(!) to list such important functions of no 19 -preserving , protecting, prooving etc. It even does not say that code 19 is a sign??!!

Check this out:

Sunnis : Hadith and sunna ARE proven from the quran ? How, by cutting up verses like 59/7 (take what rasool gives u) and decontextualising 'obey Allah and obey messenger'. How do you select hadith ? by making the muhaditheen's criteria as divinely inspired.

19ers : 19 code IS proven from the quran. How? by totally ignoring the fact that Allah never told us how to count it and left it to our own devices. Therefore, RK's criteria has become god's criteria.

Falsehood follows similar patterns, unfortunately.

Edip, forget about this code. Stand by the Book's MESSAGE and we can all stand up against oppression and establish Allah's laws.

thanks and peace

[idolfree1]

Peace be upon you all,

If people would stop counting this reading(quran), they would see that the goal of spiritual cultivation is to overcome emotions. Emotions are "knee jerk" reactions that have been programmed into us by our cultures/traditions (what our fathers followed).

We have to seperate our  minds from tradition (Mary (female/Mind)seperated from her family (tradition) and gave birth to the new PARADIGM.

When we understand that our minds can be programmed, we can CHANGE the automatic reactions of emotions that we have, we can begin to respond with peace.

Solomon understood well, he used his emotions(shayteen) to work for him.

My point is not  to say that I expect anyone here , including myself to have mastered that, but when I see people saying that to respond emotionally for ANY REASON is okay, I have to question thier understanding of the guidance, especially after such a long time defending this 19 "miracle".

Brother Damon, Take your time and stop putting all your efforts behind a cause without examining. I know you  are ready to act, but there are rules in life that we cannot move away from, or we meet failure. Or maybe you are actually a follower of the 19 code, perhaps I wrongly assumed you were not in agreement with that.

[naxus]

Peace i was really surprised when i first read about the code initionally i like it but with time passing away i have to say its just a fitna why its a fitna well it take peoples away from the Message instead of following the Message they start conjecture about 19 but well every one has his/her own understanding but i will request to the followers of code 19 n peoples who r against the code that we should stick with the message instead of proving to every one that either its right or wrong its very similer to sunni who thoughts when they read in Quran to follow God and The Messanger n then Quran was left n peoples just start running behind hadith to follow the Messanger same happend to 19rs they also start running behind the code 19 instead of following or permoting The Message whicih is Quran peace

[Zlatan]

peace, salvation, and all the well being to you mujahid, all

Check this out:

Sunnis : Hadith and sunna ARE proven from the quran ? How, by cutting up verses like 59/7 (take what rasool gives u) and decontextualising 'obey Allah and obey messenger'.
Falsehood follows similar patterns, unfortunately.

Very good observation mq...the whole code story is about the decontextualising...its a heap of decontextualisations piled up upon another heap of decontexctualisations, piled up upon an another heap... et cetera... ad infinitum...this is among the most important reasons why it shouldnt be accepted, and not some animosity toward numbers, any personality or whatever...

with this in mind it becames clear that Edip and other code 19 supporters together with the whole spectar of symphatisers are far from having probem with 2 verses or so...it would be a great banalisation of the problem....they are having big big problems with many messages of the book.... many of them being essential or in the core of this divine book...actualy they are having great problems with the great reading/quran in general, since more than a simple compilation of its isolated verses and sayings, this God`s message is rather a compact DOCTRINE, in a way an undivisible and unsolubile WHOLE, where the summ is greater and qualitatively significantly different from its parts...


best wishes, Zlatan

[mquran]

Salaamun alaikum Zlatan,

Very good observation mq...the whole code story is about the decontextualising...its a heap of decontextualisations piled up upon another heap of decontexctualisations, piled up upon an another heap... et cetera... ad infinitum...this is among the most important reasons why it shouldnt be accepted, and not some animosity toward numbers, any personality or whatever...

Thank you. All I was doing was repeating the arguments raised against 19ism from the debate in ropelist made in 1999. I'm very happy that debate took place because it exposed 19ism quite clearly to me.

I believe these false stategies of approaching the book can easily be exposed by compiling all verses and seeing what contradicts (4/82 being the internal principle involved). Sunnism, Shiaism, 19ism and even certain free-minds opinion, imho, fails this analysis.

thanks and peace.