Author Topic: Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?  (Read 3294 times)

warda

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Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2005, 07:07:56 PM »
peace drfazl, progod,all

Quote

So no, there shouldn't exist any Islamic state. There should exist a grand Union of God's loyalists, uniting under God and upholding His messages.

I agree with progod. While mankind is in this state of mind as they are nowadays danger of oppressing people in a theocracy is just too high.  How to deal with people who don't believe in God and in God's system? Punish them in the Name of God?... Very difficult.
 :?:
Salam
warda

idolfree1

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Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2005, 12:08:45 AM »
Peace be upon you,

The laws of the God enforce themselves, you reap what you sow. The only way to see the truth is to look at the WHOLE. I agree with brother Fazl on the point that FORCE goes against PEACE. But does this mean that if someone in the community starts to murder people that we use no force against him? No. Again, we have to look at the WHOLE. And once we see that this one person is detrimental to the survival of the whole, force must then be applied.

The laws of the God are natural. We can learn them from reflection on the universe. This reading(quran) only points us back to the laws of the universe as do all spiritual teachings and thier prophets and messengers.

There cannot be a "state" where someone is FORCED to do anything because the God says there is NO COMPULSION in His system. But if tehre is such a state where people are living righteously, then you will find that the wicked man will want to get away from this society because he/she cannot thrive there. The wicked require a society that does not care about each other, and turns thier back on wickedness instead of SPEAKING OUT about it. Speaking out and warning and reminding is not compulsion.

In my community, I always here the elders state how life USED to be better when your neighbor up the street would reprimand your children for you if they were caught doing wrong, nowadays that is missing, and we can see the effects of this.

progod

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Forming a society, Hajj and al-masjid al-haraam
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2005, 12:09:05 PM »
God's blessings on all

I have held for a long time now that the key to the emergence of a community based on God's law would be through an ORGANIZATION or a SOCIETY. You see because of our unique situation, organization is more important than land. The organization and utilization of our resources towards a common goal is more important than OWNING land. God really owns the earth, and the message of our organization is borderless. We should be prevalent in all lands, speaking all languages, but the what keeps us together is not necessarily common land, but our common will to unite and to organize as one. In past times, and maybe even now that took proximity. But in an age of emails, letters, phone and other sort of communication the proximity is not necessarily needed unless we just want to be around people who share our same sense of morality and righteousness. But what is necessary for an organization to stay together are centers and conferences in its centers where members can be recognized and efforts can be agreed upon, and plans of execution can be drawn up.

That my friends is the intent of what we have been calling Al-masjid al-haraam, our qiblat, and al-hajj.

The sanctuary in its collective sense, better stated as 'Sanctuaries' is the meaning of Al-masjid-al-haraam. Sanctuaries are where God's loyalist can come to pay homage and devotions(no matter what the form, whether through communicating with God in prayer, educating each other or other good things). The sanctuary is to be the qiblat, meaning the center or focal point of the community of God's loyalists.

God's house is another name for the sanctuary that is dedicated to Him. Christians believe that their sanctuaries are God's houses, Jews believe that their sanctuaries are God's houses. We are no different and should think no different, our sanctuaries are God's houses also. We should consider some Christians sanctuaries to be God's houses and some Jewish sanctuaries to be His houses too, but some of them do not deserve to be viewed in this regard.

As it concerns the sanctuary that is dedicated to God, God's house, we are to congregrate in it during a certain 4 months. During this period and in God's house (wherever His houses may stand) there is to be activity (&umrah). There is to be '&arafaatun', meaning 'recognitions and approbations', there is to be 'qalaa'idu', meaning 'the bestowing of honors or ranks' there is to be 'sibaaqun aw siraa'un ilaal-khairaati' or 'racing and rushing towards beneficial things,' there are to be sacrifices of animals and the distribution of the meat to participants in this congregation and those in need, and overall there is to be rejoicing and honoring of God, an honoring that is even greater than how humanity has been known to honor its forefathers, whether that be singing songs or chants, rituals of honor or however humanity has honored its ancestors we are to incorporate our cultures' practices of honoring into this time of congregation to honor God.

This congregation is al-hajj or the pilgrimage that we as followers of the Koran, one God's messages, are to uphold. In our modern language it is more like a conference. It is only due to the fact that we consider the places where we are to have these conferences sacred, and that we go and travel to these places that it is a pilgrimage.

The pre-islamic Arab who lived within eyesight of the sanctuary in Mecca still made a pilgrimage to it when he visited it.
So did the Roman Catholic christian within eyeshot of Rome or the Christian within Eyeshot of the tomb where Jesus, God bless him, was put in when they thought that he was dead.

When are those 4 sacred months? They are discernable, as the Koran says. We discern them through the best evidence we have of the history of the Arab calendar. The Arab calendar to our best knowledge has only been corrupted in that there was and is dissention about how the months are to be calculated, the order of months has not changed.

The Koran indirectly tells us how to calculate a month correctly when it says that the compensation for missing a day of fast is feeding 1 person and the compensation for missing 2 months' worth of fasting is the feeding of 60 people. 1 day=1 person   2 months = 60 persons therefore 2months = 60 days and 1 month=30 days.

The Hadeeths and the accounts of other early Arab figures cannot be trusted where they contradict each other and the Koran. But the traditional interpretations of Hadeeths cannot be trusted either.

Godbless,
Anwar
The Quranists Must Rise!

http://www.quranists.com

drfazl

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Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2005, 04:00:14 PM »
Quote from: "Commando_X"
drfazl
Peace,
You deffinately need to start to read Quran more. There are tons of laws in the Quran that God wants us to act upon and enforce.

Heres one for beginners.

The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.


Do you mind those provisos allah has made mandatory before executing the 100 slashes a very few of which I beg to mention here suchas as follows:

1. Be a believer in Allah. Before that you have to follow the ayats 33:21 to know who allah is.
2. Having known Allah you heart shall tremble in fear and you fall to the ground weeping as required in the ayat  8:2
3. You will not advance before allah and His prophet, when you say out your prejudice as is required by the ayat 49:1
4. You will be cautious and god fearing following the ayat 8:20
5. Then you shall know what the Last Day means before believing in the last day.
6. A muslim shall not indulge in slandering for they fear Allah. "Woe to every slanderer, defamer"
7. 24: 4-9 must be fully borne in mind before punishment.
8. If one swears by Allah he is the most despised by Allah as allah makes it clear in various ayats such as 68:11, and 24 : 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and so on.

A party of such believers must alone shall watch the chastisement:

Brother Commando_X, since I am a beginner in your opinion, I humbly request you to consider my plea. Is it not mandatory that the people with above nature, each having the full wisdom on all the 8 important considerations that they might bear in their mind, body and soul - and a party of such muslims alone shall watch the punishment? And again, are you not aware, that in the absence and witness of such party of muslims who are the believers in Allah and the last day and who apply quran wholly in their day to day life, none can execute the chastisement? Other 'muslims' shall not watch the punishment is also a provision in that ayat, if you have read the Book with earnestness!

Who are a party of such pious ones and who are to judge that they are! Don't you think it is not fitting for man to decide on who a muslim is except the All- Knowing? Or, kindly tell me who is the Best of judges? How are you going to choose a party of MUSLIMS?

regards.
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, at least to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, in such a way  http://foolproofcure.net/index.aspx   that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.

Elke

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Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2005, 08:21:40 PM »
drfazl,


Agree with you largely ... on this thread :wink:


Progod : also totally agree with your posts here


No islamic state because of human nature. If human has the power he will most certainly abuse it. If he does so in the name of the God it is even worse. I truely feel that islam is a personal matter. The day that "people will embrace the Gods religion in throngs" may get us close of such an utopy of a true islamic state, but I'd rather not take the chance...

Salaam to all, Elke
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drfazl

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Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2005, 04:01:42 AM »
Quote from: "Elke"
drfazl,  
I truely feel that islam is a personal matter.


Great words indeed !

May Allah Bless Us All With Peace and Wisdpm
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, at least to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, in such a way  http://foolproofcure.net/index.aspx   that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.

Elke

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Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2005, 07:43:49 PM »
Thank you so much drfazl :oops:

Don't give me that kind of treatment too often, i might get bigheaded...

Salaam (i know you don't like that though :lol: ), Elke
"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery ; none but ourselves can free our minds"
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progod

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Never a Koranic state.
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2005, 02:57:15 PM »
Organization not State.

Organization, Mutual Patronage, Consultation, Discipline, Support, Internal Betterment, Programs that reach out for the betterment of others, Branches, Jurisdiction, Koran as Law and guider of policy, Representation, Self-sacrifice for the benefit of the Community that espouses the Organization of God's loyalists.  

If you are thinking state, you are thinking wrong.

When has a church or an Internations organization needed a state.

Think Grand Organization.
Think what if the U.N. has citizens, official members who abided by its law. Citizens that transcended the bounderies of every country, but who had a common citizenship, a common bond and a common creed and the organization and self-sacrifice to make it a moving force in the world.

Think Bigger than State

Godbless,
Anwar
The Quranists Must Rise!

http://www.quranists.com

Idris

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Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2005, 03:00:40 PM »
peace be upon you Anwar,

Quote
Programs that reach out for the betterment of others


sound familiar eh? :D I want to know if you plan on joining the program? i noticed you signed up on the board

peace
Workers and their families may starve to death in the New World Order of economic rationality, but diamond necklaces are cheaper in elegant New York shops, thanks to the miracle of the market.
-Noam Chomsky

progod

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Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2005, 02:27:13 AM »
I've had trouble trying to sign up. Mind helping.


Godbless,
Anwar
The Quranists Must Rise!

http://www.quranists.com