Author Topic: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence  (Read 13051 times)

huruf

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2016, 12:21:12 PM »
That is what I mean: there is no "lack of violence" that can replace love, affection, fondness. If we love the children and show it and do not make them starve for nearness, God willing, they will grow to be sane people.

And as Zulf says, there is a big, very very big difference between beating and spanking. I can't conceive of really beating a creature neither big nor small, but beating a woman or a child is such an ugly thing as to make instantaneously hell on earth with such a thing.

People are not perfect, parents are not God' that never make mistakes, who are immune to tiredness or have no limits to their capacity or their patience. Parents commit errors, have shortcomings.

To read some of the things that people write about what parents should do or not do seem to spring from a belief that parents are omnipotent people who are above all failings and limits of human nature just by virtue of their being parents.

Parents are human and have limits ad have shortcomings and have failings. Children know it and accept it if they know they are loved. A child can forgive mistakes even if they get a punshiment which was not fair if the parent acknowledges it and says so. At that point the child is happy because she or he can do something for the parent: forgive him or her if the parent lost temper or was unfair to the child. That far from bringing children and parents apart in fact brings them closer.

Children do not want perfect parents but parents who love them and show it. That is the whole thing. 

Nice that you reminded us of it, Zulf.

Salaam

Bender

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2016, 12:31:24 PM »
but beating a woman or a child is such an ugly thing as to make instantaneously hell on earth with such a thing.

Salaam
Hi,

Beating a healthy strong man is not ugly?  :hmm
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Jafar

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2016, 12:57:10 PM »
1. Beating of kids (or adult) has been outlawed in some countries  today.
Thus parent who think that they can still do as such must check with the governing law on where he or she lives in.

Yes.. especially you Abraham... sacrificing your own son is not considered as a heroic act now.. kapish?

2. Threatening somebody (including children) with violence has been considered as an act of harassment, a penal offense in some countries today.

huruf

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2016, 02:15:03 PM »
Hi,

Beating a healthy strong man is not ugly?  :hmm

Quote
I can't conceive of really beating a creature neither big nor small,

I think there is  difference between agression to somebody who is able to defend himself and somebody who may attempt to defend him or herself, but is not a match for the agressor.

And I do not mind being called sexist for it, but I do consider that being both things ugly, it is much uglier that a man should beat a woman, and I think I am not the only one to think so, but rather many people do, not that I need company for that, but what I mea is that it is not a fashion or posturing but omething which is in the fitra.

Salaam


Bender

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2016, 03:04:22 PM »
Quote
I can't conceive of really beating a creature neither big nor small,

Hi,

sorry missed this quote.

I think there is  difference between agression to somebody who is able to defend himself and somebody who may attempt to defend him or herself, but is not a match for the agressor.

And I do not mind being called sexist for it, but I do consider that being both things ugly, it is much uglier that a man should beat a woman, and I think I am not the only one to think so, but rather many people do, not that I need company for that, but what I mea is that it is not a fashion or posturing but omething which is in the fitra.

Salaam

I think you say this because men are in general stronger then women.
I think it's better to say that it's uglier when a stronger person beats a weaker person.
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

wrkmmn

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2016, 12:00:04 PM »
Peace:

I could give many examples of when to reward your children materially/spiritually while avoiding making them think that they are your masters, because that is a fine line that they often cross, and you notice it by the tone of their voice when they talk to you.
when can you turn a blind eye to your misbehaving children, and how many times.
when to warn and punish psychologically. 
when to warn of physical punishment, and how many warnings to give depending on how unacceptable is the action.
when to punish and the degree of the punishment, depending on the bad your children made.
However, it is not on me to give you understanding. I will have to fill many pages from what I have gathered throughout my life.  Whatever you do is part of your test. Our children is the only case where we have the opportunity to be witness, judge, and executioner, and we will be judge for it.

remember that nobody can be punished if he/she acted in ignorance. Therefore, children must have a certain age/level of understanding to begin to receive punishments. If you are not of those who fear God, and are not patient, you will be most likely to go beyond the limits. The only advice I can give you is that if you are angry do not punish your children, but intil you are calm again.

Forget the stupid idea that you should treat your children as equals, for they are not, they are your children and you are their parents, and there is a line that they shall never cross. You can be their friend, their partner, etc, but you should never allow them to feel that they are above you, and they shall honor you no matter how decrepit you have become. Discipline is the best way to show that you care/love to your children, and nobody hates it except the ungrateful ones.

Do not feel bad to tell your children that you will not tolerate disobedience, and that if they grow up to be rebellious, they will not be worthy of being called your sons/daughters. Read the Holy books, pray God for wisdom.

11:45And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges!"
11:46He said, "O Noah, indeed he is not of your family; indeed, he is [one whose] work was other than righteous, so ask Me not for that about which you have no knowledge. Indeed, I advise you, lest you be among the ignorant."


proverbs 29
15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
 17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.
18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.


As for those that only speak because they have mouth:
20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

may God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.

Zulf

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2016, 12:24:23 PM »
I think you say this because men are in general stronger then women.
Yes probably.

Quote
I think it's better to say that it's uglier when a stronger person beats a weaker person.
It's not necessarily better. It is perhaps true, in a theoretical and philosophical way, but when looking at reality, everyday life across the world, we see that it is in fact women, and children, who are being beaten up. The men who are being beaten and oppressed by women are a small minority, and an "anomaly" if you wish. The oppressive women and the subjugated men will probably remain lika that even when publiv opinion and culture changes. An anomaly is an exception. The real issue is the physical abuse that happens in the majority of cases. 

Ok, since men will always be larger and stronger, physically, than women, the beating will never go away completely. The beating will always be there because it is the consequence of two factors that will remain constant forever: 1) difference in phsical strength, and 2) the corruptness/weakness of the human mind. Just like men beat up women, dominant groups tend to oppress minority groups. The big bully in school will harass the weaker kids. A more powerful nation will boss around with weaker nations. This is what happens on an animal level, and it is quite natural. But human beings are not supposed to be animals. So, we should try to change general public opinion, while realizing that the extreme exceptions will always be there, and perhaps law enforcement will have to teach them a lesson.

So, I think it is better to stress that it is women who are victims of physical abuse, simply because this is reality. It serves no purpose to take it to a too philosohpical and mathematically correct level. Big vs small is too general and doesn't adress the ground level reality, even though it may be true.

Actually, violence against women and children (domestic violence) is a subset of general violence, but should not be hidden and forgotten inside general violence. The reason is that there are different mechanics at play. Like we don't call all illness by the same name and we don't treat all illness with the same medicine, yet all illness is illness.

Peace
 O0
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Bender

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2016, 01:44:30 PM »
Yes probably.
It's not necessarily better. It is perhaps true, in a theoretical and philosophical way, but when looking at reality, everyday life across the world, we see that it is in fact women, and children, who are being beaten up. The men who are being beaten and oppressed by women are a small minority, and an "anomaly" if you wish. The oppressive women and the subjugated men will probably remain lika that even when publiv opinion and culture changes. An anomaly is an exception. The real issue is the physical abuse that happens in the majority of cases. 

Ok, since men will always be larger and stronger, physically, than women, the beating will never go away completely. The beating will always be there because it is the consequence of two factors that will remain constant forever: 1) difference in phsical strength, and 2) the corruptness/weakness of the human mind. Just like men beat up women, dominant groups tend to oppress minority groups. The big bully in school will harass the weaker kids. A more powerful nation will boss around with weaker nations. This is what happens on an animal level, and it is quite natural. But human beings are not supposed to be animals. So, we should try to change general public opinion, while realizing that the extreme exceptions will always be there, and perhaps law enforcement will have to teach them a lesson.

So, I think it is better to stress that it is women who are victims of physical abuse, simply because this is reality. It serves no purpose to take it to a too philosohpical and mathematically correct level. Big vs small is too general and doesn't adress the ground level reality, even though it may be true.

Actually, violence against women and children (domestic violence) is a subset of general violence, but should not be hidden and forgotten inside general violence. The reason is that there are different mechanics at play. Like we don't call all illness by the same name and we don't treat all illness with the same medicine, yet all illness is illness.

Peace
 O0

Hi,

RED: But I like to be mathematically correct  >:(
It feels to me as injustice to others who are also victim of abuse to ignore them or give them less attention, only because they are men.

BLUE: I think we only use the word abuse/beating when it's an abuse/beating for that person.
My slap would be an abuse for a child, but it would be a tickle for mike tyson, but mike tyson also has his limits and can also get a slap which can be defined as abuse and then he deserves  imho as much attention as the child.
So yes we should give the most attention to children because they are weakest (physically and mentally), but mike tyson has priority over a child who just got a slap from me if he is about to get dismembered.
What I try to say is that abuse is a relative concept because it differs for every person no matter age, gender, psychological condition, etc.
So when the line of abuse is reached for a person we have to give it equal priority, so for children this line can already trespassed very early because they are not only the weakest physical but also mentally as it can destroy their whole future lives.

 :peace:
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Zulf

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2016, 09:18:40 AM »
Hi,

RED: But I like to be mathematically correct  >:(
It feels to me as injustice to others who are also victim of abuse to ignore them or give them less attention, only because they are men.

Who says they would be ignored? Abusive violence is always a crime.
Men are not ignored just because there is an attempt to highlight and reduce domestic violence against women. The only reason why women are mentioned here is that they are the victims in the vast majority of cases. We are talking about Domestic violence here. Not focussing on them would be unfair and also a waste of time. Outside the home, mostly men are involved in violence. I think that gets quite it's fair attention.

Like I said, it there is no need for people to get worried just because the plight of women is talked about in open words. Physical violence is still a crime no matter who committs it and no matter who the victim is. The problem of domestic violence though is a structural one,  a societal one...  and it should be addressed as such.

Quote

BLUE: I think we only use the word abuse/beating when it's an abuse/beating for that person.
My slap would be an abuse for a child, but it would be a tickle for mike tyson, but mike tyson also has his limits and can also get a slap which can be defined as abuse and then he deserves  imho as much attention as the child.
So yes we should give the most attention to children because they are weakest (physically and mentally), but mike tyson has priority over a child who just got a slap from me if he is about to get dismembered.
What I try to say is that abuse is a relative concept because it differs for every person no matter age, gender, psychological condition, etc.
So when the line of abuse is reached for a person we have to give it equal priority, so for children this line can already trespassed very early because they are not only the weakest physical but also mentally as it can destroy their whole future lives.

 :peace:

Yes. Mike Tyson will get help if he gets beaten down outside sports. So will children,  and women.  Who is being beaten up mostly?

Peace bro
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huruf

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Re: Beating of kids or threating them with light violence
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2016, 09:39:47 AM »
I think Zulf is right. Anybody who gets agresed gets attention, but the fact that violence against women gets, deservedly attntion a such is becaue it is not an individual things but like we would say, a class act. Thy are beaten because they ar women, not because they are any individual or a particular individual. Like rape, women are raped becaue they are women. Men are also raped by other men, but I do not think as a class act, except in Lut's city, or in child porn events which of course should get , and I do not think anybody disagrees with that, I do not know if enough attention, but attention as such, not as an individual event.

Women, within certain mentality are considered as territory,  something on which to exert souveraignty. I definitel think there i something very characeristic in violence against women which makes it different from any chance or individual beating of which of course women can also be the victims, like being assaulted for money by drugaddicts or events like that. In that case they ar agressed by reason alien to their being women, and as a male could also be agessed.

Salaam