Hot/"ramadan" Answer

[brook]

... Quran tells us that with Allah the number of moths is 12 (9:36) by the ordinance of Allah for which the new moon is the marking of a new month(2:189).

9:36 tells us that the set of full moons is made up of 12 full moons at the least. That means that 11 does not make a set, it has to be 12 at the least. But sometimes the set has an extra full, making the number 13. The proof is for you to count the full moons between the two consecutive appearances ot the first full moon after the summer solstice. 

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2016&country=74

01... 20 July 2016
02... 18 Aug
03... 16 Sept
04...  16 Oct
05... 14 Nov
06... 14 Dec
07... 12 Jan 2017
08... 11 Feb
09... 12 March
10... 11 Apr
11... 11 May
12... 09 June

However,
the previous set had an extra full moon,
so it was made up of 13 full moons:

01... 02 July 2015
02... 31 July
03... 29 Aug
04... 28 Sept
05... 27 Oct
06... 26 Nov
07... 25 Dec
08... 24 Jan 2016
09... 22 Feb
10... 23 March
11... 22 Apr
12... 22 May
13... 20 June

You can place 13 full moons between the two consecutive appearances of a full moon,
but you cannot place 13 lunar months.

[HP_TECH]

I guess I will reply to you while I await Layth's response.

9:36 tells us that the set of full moons is made up of 12 full moons at the least.

Do you have access to a Quran?
That is not what 9:36 says AT ALL...

9:36 إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ فَلَا تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَافَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَافَّةً وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

9:36 Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena

9:36 Indeed, (the) number (of) the months with Allah (is) twelve months in (the) ordinance (of) Allah (from the) Day He created the heavens and the earth; of them, four (are) sacred. That (is) the religion the upright, so (do) not wrong therein yourselves. And fight the polytheists all together, as they fight you all together. And know that Allah (is) with the righteous.

That means that 11 does not make a set, it has to be 12 at the least. But sometimes the set has an extra full, making the number 13.

Where are you pulling out this jargon from?
Please DO NOT misinterpret Verses nor make up your own rules. The verse is clear.

The proof is for you to count the full moons between the two consecutive appearances ot the first full moon after the summer solstice. 

There is no proof in what you say.
We do not count full moons.
We count crescent moons.
the summer solstice. Really ?? 

There is no mention of moons in this verse nor sets, which is why I asked the above question.



So again, excuse me but where do you read this "set", "13" business? DO NOT seek to twist the Message man....

9:36 tells us there have been 12 months from day 0.

2:189 clarifies the new moons are indicators of periods for the people and for the hajj

2:189 يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْأَهِلَّةِ قُلْ هِيَ مَوَاقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَالْحَجِّ وَلَيْسَ الْبِرُّ بِأَن تَأْتُوا الْبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنِ اتَّقَىٰ وَأْتُوا الْبُيُوتَ مِنْ أَبْوَابِهَا وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

2:189 Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnnasi waalhajji walaysa albirru bi-an ta/too albuyoota min thuhooriha walakinna albirra mani ittaqa wa/too albuyoota min abwabiha waittaqoo Allaha laAAallakum tuflihoona

2:189 They ask you about the new moons. Say, "They (are) indicators of periods for the people, and (for) the hajj And it is not [the] righteousness that you come (to) the houses from their backs, [and] but [the] righteous (is one) who fears (Allah). And come (to) the houses from their doors. And fear Allah so that you may (be) successful.

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2016&country=74

01... 20 July 2016
02... 18 Aug
03... 16 Sept
04...  16 Oct
05... 14 Nov
06... 14 Dec
07... 12 Jan 2017
08... 11 Feb
09... 12 March
10... 11 Apr
11... 11 May
12... 09 June

What is this set you talk about? And how do you pick such set? It seems arbitrary to me.

Why are you complicating the clearest instructions with jargon?

Just count 12 CRESCENT MOONS/NEW MOONS but not in the modern astrological understanding (which is when there is no moon). DO NOT count full moons. 36:39 Clearly explains that the moon RETURNS as the date stalk the old. Obviously describing a crescent moon.

crescent moon T-0
crescent moon T-1
crescent moon T-2
crescent moon T-3
crescent moon T-4
crescent moon T-5
crescent moon T-6
crescent moon T-7
crescent moon T-8
crescent moon T-9
crescent moon T-10
crescent moon T-11
crescent moon T-12

However,
the previous set had an extra full moon,
so it was made up of 13 full moons:

01... 02 July 2015
02... 31 July
03... 29 Aug
04... 28 Sept
05... 27 Oct
06... 26 Nov
07... 25 Dec
08... 24 Jan 2016
09... 22 Feb
10... 23 March
11... 22 Apr
12... 22 May
13... 20 June

It seems like your numbering is off.
Whatever you start out with is T-0 (or T initial).

You can place 13 full moons between the two consecutive appearances of a full moon,
but you cannot place 13 lunar months.

I am not sure what you are concluding here.
If you start off with crescent T-0 and end with crescent T-12 you would have witnessed 12 lunar months and 13 crescent moons.
The crescent moon is an indicator not the actual month. In addition if you begin with witnessing a crescent moon that does not indicate you witnessed a month obviously. It indicates the initiation of the month in THAT case.

[Layth]

Salam,

I am not clearly understanding what you are suggesting.
Are you saying that we are currently observing Ramadhan in the wrong season?
Or are you simply saying that we associate the wrong season with Ramadhan?

Yes, that is indeed my point. Both the wildly spinning Sunni/Shia calendar which moves throughout the entire seasons as well as the literal "Ramadhan is the Summer" fasts are not correct. 

The reason I ask is because the Quran tells us that with Allah the number of moths is 12 (9:36) by the ordinance of Allah for which the new moon is the marking of a new month(2:189). Lunar months are slightly shorter than the gregorian calendar's months. 355-56 days versus 365-66 days on average 11 less days. Following the ordinance of Allah for keeping count of time, seasons do not remain fixed to particular months but they gradually slide or shift. In this manner you could never claim that Ramadhan was in a particular month some day 1400 years ago unless you take in consideration this "sliding".
So I am not mistaken into thinking that you agree with this notion correct?

The verses 9:36-37 need to be combined to get the proper picture.

9:36 is stating a simple fact, that the year in God's system is based on the 12 month principal (roughly 360 days). 9:37 then takes us to the intercalary (how to deal with the gap) and tells us that the Arabs had misused the system by using a "one year on, on year off" method which created a deliberate slippage in the months thus allowing them to circumvent the 4 restricted months.

Maybe I am just not understanding but do you have actual Quranic evidence as to what season the first revelation of Quran was revealed?

Yes, I do have the evidence. The logic is to look at the "night of decree" which is the night the Quran was revealed (97:1). The night of decree is a time when the angels and Spirit descend 97:4. The angels and Spirit descended on the night that Mary was told she was pregnant (19:17, 3:45). Jesus was conceived 9 months later at the time when dates ripen 19:25 (which is around August/September for the Mediterranean).   

Working with these facts, we can determine with certainty that the Night of Decree occurred around the winter period (December?). The final peace of information we can look at is the fact that this is a "night" event (not day) when God sends His angels and Spirit to carry out specific tasks (97:1) and where His blessings are spread. The feature of December 21/22 is that it happens to be the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere which is a fitting feature of the blessings of our Lord being granted to their maximum capacity.   

[brook]

crescent moon T-0
crescent moon T-1
crescent moon T-2
crescent moon T-3
crescent moon T-4
crescent moon T-5
crescent moon T-6
crescent moon T-7
crescent moon T-8
crescent moon T-9
crescent moon T-10
crescent moon T-11
crescent moon T-12

It seems like your numbering is off.
Whatever you start out with is T-0 (or T initial).

What does T stand for,
does it stand for Time?

If it stands for the Time of a particular moon phase,
you have to count the appearances of only that particular moon phase
so that your counting will make sense.   

You can choose
the very first phase after the New Moon
or you can choose the full moon.

It makes no difference so far as you stick to the same phase throughout the counting process.

If you are checking to see
how many times the first phase appears right after the NM
between its two consecutive appearances, that is during the time the earth turns around the sun once,
the number will be 12
but not always, sometimes it will be 13.

For example
the first NM after the summer solstice of 2016 is 04 July,
as a result the first waxing crescent is 05 July.

01... 05 July 206
02... 03 Aug
03... 02 Sept
04... 02 Oct
05... 31 Oct
06... 30 Nov
07... 30 Dec
08... 29 Jan 2017
09... 27 Feb
10... 29 March
11... 27 Apr
12... 26 May

Next عدة:

01... 25 June 2017
02... 24 July
03... 22 Aug
04... 21 Sept
05... 20 Oct
06... 19 Nov
07... 19 Dec
08... 18 Jan 2018
09... 17 Feb
10... 18 March
11... 17 Apr
12... 16 May
13... 14 June

[brook]

To cut it short
شهر in 9:36 cannot be a lunar month (lasting 29.plus days)
because 13 lunar months make 383.plus days
and it is impossible to place 383.plus days in the عدد.

The شهر is FM or any other moon phase like it
as it is possible to place it 13 times in the عدد.

[brook]

9:36 is stating a simple fact, that the year in God's system is based on the 12 month principal (roughly 360 days).

No,
it does not state 12 shahr is a year- سنة,
it simply states that 12 shahr is the  عدة:

عدة الشهور عند الله اثنا عشر شهرا

سنة is سنة,
عدة is عدة.

Let's stop
mixing them up
and claiming that it is God's ordinance.

Such a year which consists of 12 shahr is null and void,
it is so helpless that it cannot show you the seasons, in other words it has no sense of time.
A year without a sense of time is nothing but a joke.

You cannot make a year out of the shahrs.

[HP_TECH]

Salam,

Yes, that is indeed my point. Both the wildly spinning Sunni/Shia calendar which moves throughout the entire seasons as well as the literal "Ramadhan is the Summer" fasts are not correct. 

The verses 9:36-37 need to be combined to get the proper picture.

9:36 is stating a simple fact, that the year in God's system is based on the 12 month principal (roughly 360 days). 9:37 then takes us to the intercalary (how to deal with the gap) and tells us that the Arabs had misused the system by using a "one year on, on year off" method which created a deliberate slippage in the months thus allowing them to circumvent the 4 restricted months.

Yes, I do have the evidence. The logic is to look at the "night of decree" which is the night the Quran was revealed (97:1). The night of decree is a time when the angels and Spirit descend 97:4. The angels and Spirit descended on the night that Mary was told she was pregnant (19:17, 3:45). Jesus was conceived 9 months later at the time when dates ripen 19:25 (which is around August/September for the Mediterranean).   

Working with these facts, we can determine with certainty that the Night of Decree occurred around the winter period (December?). The final peace of information we can look at is the fact that this is a "night" event (not day) when God sends His angels and Spirit to carry out specific tasks (97:1) and where His blessings are spread. The feature of December 21/22 is that it happens to be the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere which is a fitting feature of the blessings of our Lord being granted to their maximum capacity.

Peace bro

Interesting observations Layth.

Having said that, my only "beef" with your analysis is the associations of the seasons with the 12 shahrs.
The Gregorian calendar only attempts to wrap the year or cycle around seasons and utilizes pseudo lunar months 30-31 day months.

The problem with you and Brook's understanding is that you assume the year is a 365.5 day cycle.
You also both assume that the 12 months are supposed to  encapsulate the seasons.
What I mean is that months are directly correlated with the seasons in the Gregorian calendar which you utilized. For example December is linked with Winter season, March with Spring, June-July with Summer and September with Fall.

The truth is that neither a 365.5 day cycle nor shahrs determined by seasons are indicated by the Quran.

Steadfastness in keeping number of the years and time is in observing the 12 shahrs and new moon phases regardless of changing seasons.
Adhering to the 12 shahrs cycle irrespectively of seasonal shifts will not cause issues such as gaps or postponing.
That's my current understanding, I believe that adhering to a calendar that compensates for seasons is similar to the postponing that the pagans were doing at the time of the prophet.

Unless someone can find evidence within Quran or root meaning that the shahrs are seasons or correlated with the seasons rather than the new moons as Quran clearly indicates, I doubt there is any valid argument to be made against the claim above.

Peace

[The Guided One]

2:185. "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

A common misconception is that the word "shahr" means month. However, the term "shahr" doesn't mean month. According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply?

Classical Arabic Dictionaries deal extensively with the etymology of the word "shahr". For instance in the discussion of "shahr", it gives "ash-harat", a derivative of "shahr", as meaning a pregnant woman whose belly is round. It also gives the meaning of "shahira(t)" as a big wide woman. It also gives the meaning of "ash-har" as the bright white color of flowers. The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon.

There is no evidence that there was a "pre-quranic" month named Ramadhan. The common noun "ramadhan" means "scorching heat". The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.

However, one can indirectly verify the meaning. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram". We also know that the whole context of chapter 9 (or the second half of the very long chapter 8, since the "bism Allah" are the only separators) is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty. A sign in verse 9:81 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly after 9:82, 9:86 talks about a chapter descending at that time and from 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended so that provides an additional link between "shahr ramadhan" and "al-shahr al-7aram". Hence, circumstantial evidence from the great reading supports that "al-shahr al-7aram"/"shahr ramadhan" is a hot time of the year and confirms the dictionary's meaning.

With this understanding, let's now complete the translation of 2:185 that we started above:

2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

Now 2:185 contains the complete information that we need to know when to start the abstinence. It is the complete information irrespective of what calendar system each nation or group uses because it doesn't rely on any calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.

When does scorching heat begin to take place? The time of scorching heat starts after the summer solstice. This is the time when the sun is at its highest point and hence the shadow is smallest. Verse 25:45 talks about the indicative relationship between the sun and the shadow. It is after the summer solstice that the weather starts to become hot.

Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal. In fact, not only will the full-moon seem bigger than normal, but the low-hanging full moon takes on an orange hue as a result of scattered moonlight in Earth's dusty atmosphere. For the same reason that warning lights are orange, this orange hue creates a strong visual response, preserves the observer's night vision, and allows him/her to better see the shape and details of the moon than the normal white moon light (while driving, we all experienced how looking into white headlights degrades those abilities). Hence, the full-moon after the summer solstice is easier to witness. Moreover, because this orange moon appears while the days are longest, at the time of its appearance it is still daylight and it is still hot outside. All these signs are certainly not coincidental.

Now the next question to ask is about the year. Is the year in the great reading solar or lunar?

A few years ago i was driving in the Netherlands and i could not believe what i saw. It was a orange moon and it was very low, you could only see the half of the moon and it was very big, i have never seen such a thing, i always wondered how this was possible.

When is the ramadhan? Is it in June or after the summer? I do not understand this

According 2:185 it is when we witness the full moon, but as i understand most Muslims begin with fasting when they see the crescent moon

[The Guided One]

Salam;
Do you want an honst debate? if yes please note the following:

جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَ‌ۚ

The Moon is what God is refering to when saying "Wa Kadarho Manazel Le-tarofo Addad elsineen wa-elhesab"

The words wa-Kdarho Manazel, which means Made its Stages only refers to Moon Stages.

وَٱلۡقَمَرَ قَدَّرۡنَـٰهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَٱلۡعُرۡجُونِ ٱلۡقَدِيمِ (٣٩)
And the Moon― We have measured for it stages, till it returns like the old "3rgoon"(39)

The Sun does not have stages as the Moon; it is allways Full Sun.


Also, as I told you before, when calculating the Moon Cycle in order to know the Month and year, we should start from the begining of the Cycle (Waxing crescent) till the end of cycle (the other Waxing crescent).; as I would know that the wineing Crecsent is giving me hints the the Moon Cycle is about to end. But if I use it (the wineing Crescent) as a mark of the end of Month, then the month would be 20 days or less; and that will not agree with the verses that says the year has 12 month; nor with the verses that discribs the women period and its relation to one month.

Peace

After reading many posts i think at this moment ( it may change ) that the crescent moon is the start of ramadhan

[Wakas]

peace TGO, all,

I read the original article and this entire thread a while ago and gave my thoughts here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg333873#msg333873
Somewhat of a summary post here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg334061#msg334061


2:185
singular shahr
"...revealed in it...", "witnessed" and "abstain it"

2:217
singular shahr
"...fighting in it..."

Implication:
"in it" refers to the whole month/moon-cycle, whilst the combo of "witnessed al shahr" and "abstain it" refers to the full-moon onwards, which gives us upto 10 days. Could be of no significance but a possible fit.