Author Topic: Hot/"ramadan" Answer  (Read 385614 times)

marie

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2:187, 11:114 & 17:78
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2004, 10:27:16 PM »
Salam brother Ayman, all,

If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions :

Abstinence:
1) How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?

The timed salat
2)  How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11:114 and 17:78 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise  ?


All comment appreciated.

Thanks

Marie
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mz357

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2004, 02:34:46 AM »
Salaams marie,                      

you will figure it out sooner or later:

The fish can't swim on land,and neither are the eskimos going to make their houses of brick,if they only have ice Allahs will show them how to adopt ice.

And the quran can't be applied every where as it stands , but with modifications it can.

But isn't it available in modified forms to all nations - but not through the arabs but from Allah.And some of these forms are far better then the form of the arabic quran,As people have progressed so Allah has given them improved versions of the quran.And isn't this why even the arabs are followers nowadays.

No reply required , thanks,Salaams.

marie

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2004, 02:44:37 AM »
peace
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ayman

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Re: 2:187, 11:114 & 17:78
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2004, 05:43:45 AM »
Peace sister Marie, all,

Quote from: "marie"
If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions :

Abstinence:
1) How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?

The timed salat
2)  How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11:114 and 17:78 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise  ?


I think that to answer those questions we need to look at the purpose of the timed learning connection/"salat".

First, let's start with the learning connection/"salat". The purpose is to remember The God and we accomplish this by studying His signs. The God gave us the best times to accomplish the purpose.

The time of "fajr" is when light starts to emerge and we wake up with a clear mind. I have personally made most of the big breakthroughs in my understanding of the great reading and even in my professional work during that time.

The time after sunset is when we generally get off work and go home. This is also a relaxing time where we can study the great reading more effectively.

Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.

As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.

I hope this helps and all comments would be appreciated.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

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Re: 2:187, 11:114 & 17:78
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2004, 08:16:59 AM »
Peace brother Ayman,


Quote
Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.


You are right.

I think the dawn and the dusk are a temporal indication, the goal is to consecrate a moment to read and study the divine message and His signs before starting and at the end of our activities, this is a good food mind.

In73:20 we are told to study what we can of the quran and there is no mention of time; one can choose the good moment in harmony whith his activity to do it :

So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God?s bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment and give God a loan of righteousness.  (73:20)


Quote
As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.


You are correct, the God give us a temporal indication and it is not an obligatory condition to abstain during a counted days.

The God describes the night  as a cover, and sleep for resting and  the day to move about in (25:47) and this is also a criterion  that one can used to do both salat and abstinence independently of the sun movement.

Before I believed that 11:114 & 17:78 are only adressed to the prophet but now I change my mind about it. Praise to the God.
Starting and finishing our activity by reading and studying is a good food for our mind :)

Thanks for your helpful inputs

Peace
Marie
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idolfree1

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2004, 07:04:01 AM »
Peace be upon you Ayman and Marie,

I don't know if I can get used to all this agreement!  :D

Just kidding.

I agree as well. Marie you mentioned the night for sleeping. In those areas where the sun stays up, the people still go to sleep. They don't stay up just because the sun never goes down.
So while we are in areas that are unusual, we should make the adjustments.

I have to woder why people ended up migrating to areas where the day and night were different from most of the earth? I believe that those places weren't meant for people to remian there, but only to go to for a while, then come back, but that is all just guessing on my part. Indeed the earth is spacious for anyone that wants to sleep everyday in the darkness of night.

I'm rambling so I will say Peace  :D

Zlatan

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2004, 01:48:56 AM »
Peace all

Ayman

First i commend the great effortss you have made trying to solve the mistery... irrespective of whether the conclusions of the article are correct or not i think your work is a rich contribution to solving of the mistery...at least in respect of opening many diferent horizons of how this matter could be approached....

without debating the validity of all the arguments(for example whats the real meaning of the word shahr) and conclusions proposed in the article here are 3 points that seems very subjective from my point of view....

first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...

as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?


second question,  how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods

third question

how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?

wait to hear and learn from you more

best wishes, Zlatan

ayman

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2004, 03:42:23 AM »
Peace brother Zlatan,

Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...

as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?


The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?

The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD":

1. Highest point of the sun:

وقتِ الضُّحَى عند ارتفاعِ النهار

Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.

فَهُنّ مُعْتَرِضاتٌ ، والحَصى رَمِضٌ ،
 
 والرِّيحُ ساكنةٌ ، والظِّلُّ مُعْتَدِلُ

2. What comes when the sun is still hot:

فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها

Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.

3. Red eyes:

فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ

So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?

The first full moon after the summer solstice:

1. Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
2. Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
3. Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).

Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.

Now, let me answer your third question first.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?


From 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (9:86) was a hot time of the year (9:81) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".

Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year:

ترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ : رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه

التَّرَمُّضُ صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته

They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.

Another point is in 5:2 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".

Quote from: "Zlatan"
second question,  how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods


From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

savage_carrot

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2004, 05:06:39 AM »
Peace brother Ayman, Marie, all...

Thank you for posting this article at a time i really needed to research it..
I had some questions, but i think the majority have been answered in the course of this discussion quite satisfactorily...the rest i will soon get to...wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?

Also, sister marie wrote :

Quote
I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon


This would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...

Excellent article though and quite logical and easy to understand methodically...

Nadia
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Someone

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2004, 05:45:03 AM »
Peace all,

For how many nights the red full moon is visible?

For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 16:2 16:102 bringing the commands of the lord.


16:1 أتى أمر الله فلا تستعجلوه سبحنه وتعلى عما يشركون
16:2 ينزل الملئكة بالروح من أمره على من يشاء من عباده أن أنذروا أنه لا إله إلا أنا فاتقون
16:3 خلق السموت والأرض بالحق تعلى عما يشركون