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Hot/"ramadan" Answer

Started by ayman, November 20, 2004, 10:55:00 AM

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progod

QuoteBack to your gibberish nonsense and misleading people ?

Hmm, truthblocker and antigod? Well I wouldn't call you antigod. But you certainly are blocking truth here. Hence the epithet. But I naturally suppose that you are just as progod as I am although it seems you have some trouble with blocking some truths. Like the following.


QuoteIn 58:3-4 feeding people is NOT an expiation or expiatory substitution for fasting but for estranging one's wife. Be fearful of God for distorting His clear verses and His clear message and misleading others.

I'm not distorting God's clear verses in any way. The verse in chapt. 2 and these make it crystal clear that if you want to expiate a fast except where fasting is the last resort (for whatever reason the fast is: God's command to just fast or if the fast is to expiate a sin) you feed a person per daily fast you miss. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry for you.

Quote
In darker people the skin still turns red, its only darker.

If you can't see red, then it doesn't turn red. Seems you don't know much about darker people.

QuoteKeep on being arrogant and spreading lies about God and His message. You will be accountable for this on the Last Day. Your logic is "BECAUSE I SAY SO" and has nothing to do with truth or factual evidence.


Not at all. The evidence is factual, but you are kntipicking on words and I am showing you the logic of the matter.
Quote
When replies like yours get personal (which is antigod too) then I'm out.

That is your decision. All I know is that as it concerned these topic you were absolutely blocking the truth, and hence I felt the need to call you on it. Of course you will not thin that that is the case (or atleast you won't admit it) but when it is clear in the Quran that subsituting or expiating a duty to fast is done by feeding individuals per daily fast missed and hence the Quran equates 2 months of fasting to 60 days worth of it and you try to deny that by twisting a verse where fasting is the very last option and there is no expiating it if the previous options are not feasible, well that is deny factual evidence, and I don't have to say so for it to be so.

I don't wish for you to leave the conversation because you felt I was trying to maliciously insult you. Whether you took it as that or not, it was not malicioius, on that I swear. But you were being unjust inflexible and refusing to see it from my position to even being to illustrate the possible correctness of yours. The only way to to prove me wrong was to completely ignore my logic and that is unjust and not the way of a true truthseeker. I made room for your knitpicking of words by including others to help you get past your rigid perceptions of these words but you weren't having it. And when someone refuses to see the bigger picture like that, it is not truth seeking, it is truth blocking to themselves and to others.

Honestly it seemed to me that you were just defending Ayman from what you may have seen as unjust criticism. That may not be true, but the above points still remain.

Godbless,
Anwar
The Quranists Must Rise!

[url="http://www.quranists.com"]http://www.quranists.com[/url]

farida

Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 04:39:11 PM
Peace everyone,

"Weather at Yanbu Airport in October

In October the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a very hot 36?C (96?F), with very high heat and humidity. On average only 1 mm (0.1 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during October, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month. There are usually 10 hours of bright sunshine each day, which represents 90% of daylight hours. Average sea temperature around Yanbu Airport in October is a warm 29?C (84?F)."


Now notice the consistency with 9:81:

9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say: ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.

Salaam
I am sorry; you seem to be more desprate than Ayman to justify his theory; its mind blowing. So you say the  war in hot October and they said do not mobilize in the heat even though soon it will be nicer  weather in November. ???
:peace:

farida

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 17, 2008, 04:54:15 PM
Peace Farida,

If "shahru ramadhan" is the "month of Ramadhan", and you're saying that a month is witnessed by sighting the new crescent moon, then in order for someone to witness/sight the month, he would have to physically sight the new crescent moon. Either way, "ramadhan" is identified by the moon, whether full-moon or new crescent... So, if a blind man said to The God, "I did not witness/sight the 'shahr (moon) of ramadhan'," he would be telling the truth. There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind...

This is incorrect, especially in the case of "shahru ramadhan". If the skin witnessed the "month", then none of us would need calendars...  :laugh: It makes no sense for the reading to address the people who witness "shahru ramadhan" if this applies to everyone alive - that would make the issue completely redundant. It would say something more like:

"All of you shall fast/abstain shahru ramadhan..."

It specifically says "shahru ramadhan" is for those who witness it, so it's obviously not pertaining to everyone - there will obviously be LIVING people who will not witness it...

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam Ahmad

Lets not waste time on nonsense talk. If this is how you see a blind person's situation that "There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind" then it?s your understanding and you have your way but don't impose it on others.

I understand that a blind person is as much part of the deen as sighted ones, and the Moon is not an object of worship that had to be sighted to qualify fasting a path to muta'qeen. It?s an insult to an intelligent blind Muslim that he/she is exempt from fasting. This is common sense, this is my understanding and a blind person, by being present in the month of fasting, is amongst those who witnessed, unless he is on a journey or sick. I can't make it simpler then this.
If you have made up your mind that you would start your fasting according to Ayman's theroy, where  by hook or by crook you would  make sure that the month of fasting falls in the summer, even by skipping the 13th moon, as if one can skip time by that, ;then good luck. You are not answerable to me; we are all answerable to our creator. That is certainly not my deen

:peace:

belH

Quote from: farida on September 17, 2008, 06:12:16 PM
Salaam
I am sorry; you seem to be more desprate than Ayman to justify his theory; its mind blowing. So you say the  war in hot October and they said do not mobilize in the heat even though soon it will be nicer  weather in November. ???
:peace:

Peace everyone;

Frida, it seams that they can't deny that 9-81 is about the war that were mentioned in 9-1to5. Thus, they will try to twist the truth and show that October weather is Summer weather, when it is known to be Fall. Also, they ignored that the Prophet was in Madina that has different weather than what they showed. Madina Weather is similar to Jordan, and much cooler than Mecca.
:peace:

Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 05:17:33 PM
Peace Ayman,

No Ayman, it is YOU who is repeating fallacious "full moon" theory circular arguments.   

You tell us. What is a restricted or whatever you want to call it full moon?

Definition please -- there are four of them right?

Yes it's magic; lets count the full moons:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 = total time 11 lunar MONTHS!

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

NO those are your words. It is you who thinks you know better than the God.

Ego dude -- kill it!

Full moon theory ranks up there with the top three absurdities.

I'm out this thread...

28:55 And if they heard the nonsense talk, they turned away from it, and they said: "For us our deeds, and for you, your deeds, peace be on you, we do not wish/desire the ignorant."




May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom, and every true Believer in this Forum.

truthseeker11

Peace belal, everyone,

Quote from: belalhammad on September 17, 2008, 07:10:53 PM
Peace everyone;

Frida, it seams that they can't deny that 9-81 is about the war that were mentioned in 9-1to5. Thus, they will try to twist the truth and show that October weather is Summer weather, when it is known to be Fall. Also, they ignored that the Prophet was in Madina that has different weather than what they showed. Madina Weather is similar to Jordan, and much cooler than Mecca.
:peace:

May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom, and every true Believer in this Forum.

Who is "they"? I am just one person trying to find the truth for myself by participating in a forum discussion with others. I am trying to listen to all the views and follow the best. Instead of being personal, we should focus on the facts backed by evidences to arrive at the truth.

39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

There is no evidence that the war being mentioned in 9:81 is the same as the one being ordered in the beginning of chapter 9. You have not been able to prove it from The Quran despite repeated requests.

I am trying to cover all possibilities. I don't think it is the same war, but EVEN IF IT IS, I have shown that it is possible to have hot weather after the restricted shahoor even if shahru ramadhan started in July. I referenced temperatures of Yanbu which is very close to Medina and has similar temperatures. Actually The Quran does not say where the war/wars mentioned in chapter 9 were fought. It is a fact, however, that October in the Arabian peninsula is still a month of EXTREME heat.

Following is a temperature forecast for Medina for end of September:

http://www.accuweather.com/world-forecast-15day.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&locCode=MEA|SA|SA005|MEDINA&metric=1

Next month, this link will show the temperatures for October and then you will be able to see for yourself how hot it is in October in Medina. Even November is quite hot in that area.

See the following again:

http://www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#weather
http://www.weather2flights.com/airports/index.php?airport=YNB#month-by-month

"Weather at Yanbu Airport in November

In November the average maximum daytime temperature at Yanbu Airport is a hot 32?C (89?F), with high heat and humidity. On average only 19 mm (0.7 inches) of rainfall is expected at Yanbu Airport during November, with rain generally falling on just 1 day of the month."


Where is the "nice November weather" as mentioned by farida?

It does not matter what the November weather was because even if the last restricted full-moon was in October and even if the war of 9:81 was immediately after that full-moon, it would still have been VERY HOT at that time according to all the factual data I have presented.

There are three hypothetical possibilities and none of them contradict the "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching hot time period:

1. The war of 9:81 started immediately after the restricted shahoor. It would still be very hot when the war started as I have shown above.
2. The war of 9:81 started before the restricted shahoor in May or June. It would be very hot when the war started and shahru ramadhan can still be in the scorching time period.
3. The third hypothetical scenario is the following which still does not contradict "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching heat:

a. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on July 11 in the year 610 CE:

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=610&n=151

b. Mushrikeen break the treaty with the believers on July 10, 610. This is considered an act of aggression and an attack on the believers per 9:13.
c. Believers wait until the 4 restricted shahoor have passed and then attack the mushrikeen after October 8 (4th restricted full-moon), while it is still very hot. This is a defensive war because the believers were attacked first (see 9:13)
d. The war continues the whole remaining year and into the next year until June 611 CE arrives. At this time the believers are again fighting in hot weather.
e. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on June 30, 611. The mushrikeen keep attacking the believers, and the defensive war continues in the restricted shahoor in 611 because the mushrikeen refuse to stop the physical war.
f. The mushrikeen are finally defeated near the end of 611 CE

As you can see, shahru ramadhan can be in the scorching heat in all possible scenarios, with no contradiction between 9:1-13 and 9:81!
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say: ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

belH

Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
Peace belal, everyone,

There is no evidence that the war being mentioned in 9:81 is the same as the one being ordered in the beginning of chapter 9. You have not been able to prove it from The Quran despite repeated requests.

That was an answer, beside Farida's.

Quote from: belalhammad on September 16, 2008, 10:19:17 PM
Peace all;
Sorry I'm posting this without reading your replies (I was too busy today)

Hello Mr. TruthSeeker:

As we all know, the prophet was ordered to fight when being attacked, and was ordered to not start a war. But when Chapter 9 was revealed, things changed for a period of time. In Chapter 9, from verse 1 to 5, the prophet understood that he has to prepare for a war in which he would be in the offensive side. He was ordered to free the Secret Mosque from the disbelievers. We know that the war had to start after the 4 restricted month (per 9-1 to 5), and we know that it took place in summer time (per 9-81).
In 9-81, it was clear that the hypocrites were advising the prophet to not start the war in Summer time; hence, the prophet was on the offensive side and was in control of when the war should start; hence, the only war that the prophet was on the offensive side was the war of Chapter 9. :!
If you happened to know another war where the prophet was in control of when it should start (offensive side), please let me know.

Also, please let me know why you are so stressed about Ayman Theory?
Are you Ayman himself? :confused:



Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PM

It is a fact, however, that October in the Arabian peninsula is still a month of EXTREME heat.

If you following Ayman's, the 4 restricted Months will end in the end of October and the begining of November. And according to your link, such months will be the begining of the Lowest Heat season of the year.

Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
Following is a temperature forecast for Medina for end of September:

http://www.accuweather.com/world-forecast-15day.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&locCode=MEA|SA|SA005|MEDINA&metric=1

I could not get any info in this link.

:)

truthseeker11

Peace belal,

Quote from: belalhammad on September 17, 2008, 09:44:54 PM
That was an answer, beside Farida's.

If you following Ayman's, the 4 restricted Months will end in the end of October and the begining of November. And according to your link, such months will be the begining of the Lowest Heat season of the year.

I could not get any info in this link.

:)

Click on the link and then enter Medina, Saudi Arabia in the search field and then look at the 15 day forecast.

If the first restricted full-moon i.e. the scorching full-moon (shahru ramadhan) is in July, the 4th restricted full-moon will be in October. For example, this year the scorching full-moon was on July 18, which would be the first restricted full-moon, and the 4th restricted full-moon will be on Oct 14. Oct 15th will be after the 4 restricted full-moons (ashhur alharaam).

Even November is hot in the south-west Arabian peninsula. According to the links I referenced in my earlier post, the average maximum temperature in November in Yanbu (near Medina) is 32 degrees C (90 degrees F), and combined with humidity, it feels hot in November too. The highest temperatures in November can go up to as high as 40 degrees C in that region (104 degrees F).

6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say: ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

ayman

Peace Truthseeker,

Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 09:11:31 PMThere are three hypothetical possibilities and none of them contradict the "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching hot time period:
1. The war of 9:81 started immediately after the restricted shahoor. It would still be very hot when the war started as I have shown above.
2. The war of 9:81 started before the restricted shahoor in May or June. It would be very hot when the war started and shahru ramadhan can still be in the scorching time period.
3. The third hypothetical scenario is the following which still does not contradict "shahru ramadhan" being in scorching heat:
a. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on July 11 in the year 610 CE:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=610&n=151
b. Mushrikeen break the treaty with the believers on July 10, 610. This is considered an act of aggression and an attack on the believers per 9:13.
c. Believers wait until the 4 restricted shahoor have passed and then attack the mushrikeen after October 8 (4th restricted full-moon), while it is still very hot. This is a defensive war because the believers were attacked first (see 9:13)
d. The war continues the whole remaining year and into the next year until June 611 CE arrives. At this time the believers are again fighting in hot weather.
e. Shahru ramadhan is witnessed on June 30, 611. The mushrikeen keep attacking the believers, and the defensive war continues in the restricted shahoor in 611 because the mushrikeen refuse to stop the physical war.
f. The mushrikeen are finally defeated near the end of 611 CE

First, there is no need for any of those scenarios since even if one assumes like Belal that the passages in chapter 9 are arranged chronologically immediately following one another then there are many events described between 9:5 and 9:81, for example:

1. The battle in 9:25.
2. The event in 9:28.
3. The fight against the people of the book in 9:29.
4. The event in 9:40.
5. The fight against the hypocrites in 9:73.

The most important piece of evidence is in 9:86 which clearly says" "And when a chapter is descended...". We know for certain that the great reading was descended during "shahr ramadan" (2:185). So 9:81 describing "a hot time of the year" actually confirms that "shahr ramadan" occurs during the hot time of the year. So given this fact and the number of events that could have happened between 9:5 and 9:81, the fourth and I think the most likely scenario is that almost a year had passed and now we are back to the restricted full-moons again. Please remember that according to 2:217 BIG fighting is allowed during the restriction. The only thing the restriction is really about is hunting wild life. So this time around the believers are fighting the rejecters during the restricted period.

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
English: [url="http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html"]http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html[/url]

belH

Quote from: truthseeker11 on September 17, 2008, 10:38:44 PM
Peace belal,



Even November is hot in the south-west Arabian peninsula. According to the links I referenced in my earlier post, the average maximum temperature in November in Yanbu (near Medina) is 32 degrees C (90 degrees F), and combined with humidity, it feels hot in November too. The highest temperatures in November can go up to as high as 40 degrees C in that region (104 degrees F).



Peace all;
According to the link

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/country_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT002770, can you tell which are the coolest months of the year?
Please, can every body check the link and answer a straight answer.
Also, ca anybody ask truth seeker, why he does not want to provide a temperature history for the Madina, as he did for Mecca.

Umm Tariq

Peace all,

Nun, I hope that you still answer my post here. 
Quote from: Nun de plume on September 17, 2008, 07:50:58 AM
Peace Umm Tariq,

How do they not agree?

The phrase ?shahr? is NOT in 2:228.

Shahr = time
Menstrual cycle = event


2:228 And the divorced wait with themselves three menstrual cycles

65:4 And those who became infertile from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant, their term/time (is) that they give birth?


I know the word 'shahr' is not in 2:228 what I was pointing to was the fact that the subject is the same, divorce, and when one takes the word 'shahr' as 'full moon', to use as a marker it's not the 'time period' itself just like menstruation, then I see the consistency of the god's message kept since this verse and 65:4 will EQUAL in the minimum case.  I have shown you how what you produced doesn't cause equality.  Then I asked you, why in the minimum count, should the post-menstrual wait longer than the menstrual woman if shahr is taken as month?  You haven't answered this for me.  If 'to be sure' is your answer then THAT actually shows that there is doubt in your way of counting but this doesn't come up when using 'full moon'.  Can you provide a stronger reason for the difference?

I also agree that you are not seeing the real purpose of our discussion.  Your conclusion is that 'shahr' equals time, a month, and my conclusion is that it is most consistent in the reading that 'shahr' should be 'full moon' so you can't point out to me I am wrong using your conclusion.  I already included that the these two definitions do not equal each other.  I have looked at your perspective and I see inconsistencies which aren't there with using 'full moon' so we will have to agree to disagree.

I have 2 more points.  You bolded when I was quoting YOUR question about '4 sacred full moons', I do not agree that the word 'hurum' equates to 'sacred' which to me has religious baggage attached to it.  Here's how the god explains what He means by 4 (arba'a) hurum:

9:36 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve sharan in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them are arba'a hurum.  That is the straight/ valuable obligation so do not oppress/ wrong yourselves within/ during them...

2:217 They are asking you about the shahr haraam fighting therein.  Say fighting therein is kabeer...

5:95 O you who have believed do not kill the game while you are hurum

9:2  So travel through the earth arba'a ashhur and know that you cannot outstrip/ escape  the god...

9:5  So when the ashhur hurum have passed then fight the mushrikeen wherever you find them...

In 9:36, 2:217 and 5:95 the God is telling us what not to do during these 4 hurum which is why they are described as hurum.  In 9:2 one may wonder about why 4 ashhur, what's the significance so in 9:5 the god is confirming that these are the ashhur hurum in which, by 2:217, the believers are discouraged from fighting within this time frame which leaves the mushrikeen free to travel without worrying about the believers attacking them in anyway, what they do is something else. Importantly as well the god tells us this:

5:2 O you who have believed do not tuhilluu the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the...

This is another command showing the importance, according to our Creator, of the shahr haraam so it has nothing to with 'sacred' and idolization, I seek refuge with the god from shirk.

I hope from the god's verses you understand what hurum stands for now.  Our debate is only whether does the word 'shahr' mean 'month' (something arbitrary) or ' full moon'. 

Here is my last question to all who share your view on this point if any can answer CLEARLY, it's really important to me.

As a new muslim, I am faced, during the study of the god's book, with the issue of whether shahr means full moon or month.  When I first was made aware that shahr had the meaning of full moon I was astounded and it automatically cleared up my confusions with verse 2:185 when it's translated using 'month' with the words (new crescent of ) added to the verse.  Then I realized that if we don't take the meaning of ramadan and take it as a meaningless name then how on earth would I know when it is without referring to the arab sunni calendar?  I've already been duped by them so how can I trust them on anything relating to the god's message?  Without their calendar then that would mean that the god's book is not complete on it's own nor provides a clarification for everything.  That would be a big blow to belief itself.  Or am I to make up my own calendar, still it must be based on the god's message.

So now I am asking all of you, if I take shahr to be 'month' in 2:185 1. how do I know what that month is without referring to tainted outside sources? 2. how do I know when that month is without referring to tainted outside sources?

My only conditions for the answers I am seeking is that it should be based on the god's book alone without distorting any meanings and that the answer wouldn't violate the 4 hurum.

Umm Tariq