Author Topic: Hot/"ramadan" Answer  (Read 421243 times)

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #320 on: September 12, 2008, 03:05:29 PM »
Peace everyone,

The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year?

The word July comes from Julius Caesar - it's also the name of a month.

Quote
There is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month.

They called the months something back then and those names were passed down.

Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon.

Are you sure? Is this a full moon?



On different days you would see a 99.7% full moon.

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) is much easier to tell...


 
Peace

Soof

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #321 on: September 12, 2008, 03:56:51 PM »
Quote from: progod
Peace,


They didn't need Classical Arabic dictionaries because they spoke Classical Arabic. We need the dictionaries because we don't speak it anymore unless we learn it (inclduing the Arabs of today). They knew that a month was 29 (Jewish based, now called Islamic) days. When reading the Quran and figuring out that the Jewish-based way there were counting days was incorrect then they could have made the connection. The book was for our last prophet to preach it and for the whole community to study it and enact it. I honestly dont' think they realized this. In the Islamic histories (admittedly hadeeth based) the months were taken off of the pagan system (of adding months in certain years) after our last prophet passed. So I think this challenge fell on the shoulders of the generations after our last prophet and they made the wrong decision. The other conclusion would be that our last prophet with the believing community did make the correct changes but later generations opted for the pre-islamic nomenclature of months and the lunar system, keeping off addition of an extra month (making it a fully lunar calendar), but using foreign calendars for the solar system. Which is not entirely far-fetched seeing that the nominal Musilms (the Ummayads and others) tried to bring things back to the Jahillyah system as soon as the last prophet passed away.

The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?



Quote from: progod
Yes.  58:4 However, he who does not have the where­withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

5:89 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads: 
But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage.  But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.

Here are the two verses that lay down the rule: 2:183-2:184

Fair enough.

I understand your standing point on the dictionaries. I use them and lane's lexicon frequently. The best way in the end to decide is to collect like verses together and compare. Then come to the best conclusion.

Quote from: progod
I hate to say this but that is a bias of yours. You are requiring that God make what he says clear to the corrupt and the uncorrupt a like. The Quran says that the corrupt intentionally twist its words after understanding them, and also says that many of the corrupt fail to understand even it's clearest mandates. How can we know when the corrupt do understand but are twisting on purpose? We can't, because they won't openly admit this. To those of us who are honest that is heart-wrenching because we want to believe that all humans will be honest when it comes to these sorts of discussion, but I've learned that that just will not happen. And if someone doesn't understand because they don't want to, it is also impossible to get them to admit that. So i understand you but that is why it is up to the honest to be honest with themselves, clear themselves of bias and alternative agendas and to be on the look out for those who are also honestly searching, studynig, analyzing and concluding.

Yea, but you misunderstood, I'm not asking God of anything, I already know God makes things clear to those who are mindful, who study and reflect

Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.
39:18

But what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all   :nope:, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!

So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)

What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.

Peace

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ayman

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #322 on: September 12, 2008, 05:05:59 PM »
Peace Nun,

They called the months something back then and those names were passed down.

What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.

Are you sure? Is this a full moon?

I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) is much easier to tell...

Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

Peace,

Ayman

Soof

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #323 on: September 12, 2008, 06:18:36 PM »
updated response to Progod:

The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?



Fair enough. But that verse is referring to a punishment that is separate from Ramadhan, with a separate purpose (God says fasting is good for us but it is also used as a punishment so we recognise the error of what we are doing). It may well be 60 days in this case. Does this mean that it is so?

Why is it described here as fast for two consecutive months in this verse yet in the verse regarding ramadhan it says whoever witnesses the month should fast it?

How do you witness a month?

Why do some people say Witness, some people say observe and some people say are present? Does this mean the whole month? If you take it as 30 days why doesn't God say if we can't fast the month then feed 30 Needy People? when in fact it says

(Fast) a certain number of days; and (for) him who is sick among you, or on a journey, (the same) number of other days; and for those who can afford it there is a ransom: the feeding of a man in need - but whoso doeth good of his own accord, it is better for him: and that ye fast is better for you if ye did but know
2:184

Does this mean the fast is one day according to your logic?

I understand your standing point on the dictionaries. I use them and lane's lexicon frequently. The best way in the end to decide is to collect like verses together and compare. Then come to the best conclusion.

Yea, but you misunderstood, I'm not asking God of anything, I already know God makes things clear to those who are mindful, who study and reflect

Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.
39:18

But what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all   :nope:, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!

So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)

What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.

Peace


"Asalaamu Alaikum my brother" - Friend
"No peace be unto you brother, peace be unto you." - Malcolm X

anthonywallace

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #324 on: September 12, 2008, 06:25:23 PM »

Peace Nun,

Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

Peace,

Ayman

This is the year of a dispute, for all I know. I believe you started this dispute this year...Thus I never knew of it to be a dispute...every year as you say...

 :peace:

I am no different from the other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is inspired to me. I am no more than a clear warner.

progod

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #325 on: September 12, 2008, 07:58:22 PM »
Peace,

i want to answer Samia first and say that the fast is daily. The fast is only for 1 day duirng daylight hours (hence you break it the same day), and you fast each day for the whole month. So you are not fasting the month, you are fasting during the daylight hours each day during the whole month. So, Quranically, fasting only relates to one day of fasting, because you break your fast each night and start a new one the next day for a month during Ramadan. Hence if you don't fast, you feed one person for every fast you don't do during that month.

Quote
The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?

Ok, I didn't know that was rethorical. As for the story, I'm just giving possiblities for why Islam has done this whole Ramadan thing incorrectly and unquranically (I'm not saying that God won't accept the traditional way from sincere servants). No we don't need this when approaching the Quran, just trying to give possiblities for why it hasn't been so clear too many in the past and what could have gone wrong. Ther are even debatablities on hajj, inheritance (some people say it doesn't add up), divorce, orphans and even marriage. I'm sure we could find those points that some people will not let go and force into unsolvable ambiguities. But you and I understand why that is. The fasting duty is clear it is just that you have come accross camps of people who want to take any hint of an ambiguity and use it to help their agendas.  As for this being a worldwide religion I agree. i believe that those instances of the Quran that cannot be seen from a universal point of view are there to serve as universal lessons on how we are to approach or view the issues involved. Again those scenarios were to explain what could have gone wrong during or after the prophet's time that bliinded them to the inherent universal application of these passages. As for knowing what a month is, that is cultural. And it was in the culture and therefore in the language of the pre-islamic Arabs that a month was 29 sunset to sunset days, and analyzing what that translates into when converted into Quranically mandated sunrise to sunrise days we get 30 days, that in addtion to the fact tha the Quran gives us clues on to this meaning. So the Arabs of that time had in their minds many things when they thought shahr and they had a few defintions for what a month could be as well, one of which translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.

Quote
Fair enough. But that verse is referring to a punishment that is separate from Ramadhan, with a separate purpose (God says fasting is good for us but it is also used as a punishment so we recognise the error of what we are doing). It may well be 60 days in this case. Does this mean that it is so?

It is not a punishment but a compensation, an atonement. The fact is that in chapt. 2 with those verse i gave you how to fast Quranically is given to us, as well as how to compensate for our missed fasts. So with that verse we see clearly how 2 months of fasting is being equals to 60 daily fasts.
Hence if 2 months is 60 days, 30 days is a month.

Quote
hy do some people say Witness, some people say observe and some people say are present? Does this mean the whole month? If you take it as 30 days why doesn't God say if we can't fast the month then feed 30 Needy People? when in fact it says
In my opinion because people like to argue about simple things. Shahdia is both to witness and to consciously be in the presence of. There are alot of things I wish God had said in ways that people could not make room for doubt. But this book is for those who use their 3aql. Also the fast is not for the month. The fast is for each day during the month. You are fasting daily for 30 days. You are not fasting for the whole month. I think there will be those cases where people can stand to fast part of the month. And that can be any number of days. Hence the Quran is dealing with each daily fast.


Quote
But what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all   no way, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!

Yes, the Quran explains itself. I think knowledge of the universe also makes the Quran even more clear to us. When we meet people that the Quran describes it makes it all the more clear what the Quran is talking about, even though it was clear before we me those people. It's just we didn't fully grasp the gravity of it. I also think that sometimes hearing others' honest and insightful opinons on the Quran can help us understand what we didn't see before in the book, as long as we come to see the same thing too by honestly analyzing and scrutinizing. Again, clear is only as clear as the human mind that reads it. I've seen people contort clear mandates over and over again. And the Quran says that there will be those who distort it. So even knowing that God will make the book clear to those who approach it corretly, that is, as a whole and taking what is best, in context and consistent with the rest of the book, there will be those who will try to pick and choose and make us doubt if the book is really clear or not. In the end that is up to you and the circle of people you come to trust to conclude on, being honest and sincere with yourselves.

Quote
So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)

I can agree to that mostly. As for interpretations from hadeeth. I think there are few examples of this. For instance not even the defintion of Islam in the Hadeeth as the five pillars has found its way into the dictionaries I have used. Shafi's interpretation of the word has, but his saying is cited clearly as his interpretation of the word. So dictionaries are not as guilty of this as they have been made out to be on this forum. That is mainly because hadeeths rarely try to redefine words. The scholars are the ones who, expounding upon a word in the Quran, try to redefine it. Hadeeths are just rumors of what the prophet and his companions did and said. I haven't seen much interpretation of single words in the Hadeeth, which is why they rarely find their way into the dictionaries. Now the hadeeth are used for linguistic reference. So if the hadeeth used the word 'to walk'  dictionaries will quote the hadeeths usage of the word to walk if it clearly gives away the correct meaning and usage of the word. But there is nothing wrong with that because the hadeeth is in Classical Arabic as well and can be used as a linguistic reference.  The opinions and facts of the hadeeth are what are dubious because of the fact that they are rumor. You wouldn't doubt the grammar of a a rumor, you doubt the message that it is trying to convey.

Quote
What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.

I wote about this earlier. The word can mean counted/numbered and few. Just like the English word 'numbered' can be used in the expression 'your days are numbered' to mean 'you have only few days left to live.' But that doesn't change the meaning of 'numbered'. I explained everyting in lisan al-arabi (if lane's lexicon only says few then it is an incomplete entry, and that is not the end of the world because you have to check more than oen dictionary soemtiemes to get all the meaings. The dictionary is only as good as its compiler). ANd yes the goal is to fast the whole month. That is the implication. Now that might not happen for many reasons and the Quran gives the scenarios. But I think fasting each day for a whole month is the implied message. Because that would leave it too ambiguous and we wouldn't know what to do. So if some says fast during September, he could mean only to fast for a part of it, but if he doesn't specify any part than the whole month is naturally implied. Again, the fast is daily so that is why compensating for the daily fasts during ramadan is dealt with day by day.

Godbless,
Anwar
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belH

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #326 on: September 12, 2008, 08:06:38 PM »
Peace Nun,

What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.

Why you keep hammering us with un-Quranic proofs? Why do you rely on Hadiths and rumers? Have you been advising people to not follow Hadiths and rely on Quran when speaking about religion?
Are the names you posted came from stories and hadiths or from Quran?

I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.

 :brickwall: Again...No Quranic proof

A Warrning to you From Your Lord:

وَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يُجَـٰدِلُ فِى ٱللَّهِ بِغَيۡرِ عِلۡمٍ۬ وَلَا هُدً۬ى وَلَا كِتَـٰبٍ۬ مُّنِيرٍ۬ (٨) ثَانِىَ عِطۡفِهِۦ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ‌ۖ لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلدُّنۡيَا خِزۡىٌ۬‌ۖ وَنُذِيقُهُ ۥ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ عَذَابَ ٱلۡحَرِيقِ (٩) ذَٲلِكَ بِمَا قَدَّمَتۡ يَدَاكَ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَيۡسَ بِظَلَّـٰمٍ۬ لِّلۡعَبِيدِ (١٠)
And among men is he who disputes about All?h, without knowledge or guidance, or a Book giving light (from All?h), (22-8)
Bending his neck in prid, and leading (others) too astray from the Path of All?h. For him there is disgrace in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection We shall make him taste the torment of burning (Fire). (9)
 That is because of what your hands have sent forth, and verily, All?h is not unjust to (His) slaves. (22-10)


Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

Peace,

Ayman

Happy Ramadan

If you want to sight the Moon yourself, please Feel Free, it is Fun:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php

Or will you reject technology as Mulas Do :rotfl:

ayman

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #327 on: September 12, 2008, 08:33:10 PM »
Peace everyone,

I think that at this stage, it is best to summarize all the different viewpoints on the timing of the abstinence so that people can see the essence of each and not get distracted by all the noise. There are basically four points of view:

- The traditional timing:

We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems:

1. Assumption that ?ramadan" is meaningless:

It assumes that the word ?ramadan? in 2:185 is meaningless and thus that the god could have said ?bla bla bla?, as long as it came after the month named Shaaban, which brings us to the next point.

2. The traditional timing is 100% arbitrary:

In reality, the only thing that the sectarian Ramadan is based on is when Shaaban occurred and this in turns depends on when Rajab occurred and so on.

So if one follows this back, one can see that in fact Ramadan is dependent on when the new era was made to start. Many people mistakenly believe that Islamic Calendar starts with the alleged date of migration of the prophet. However, even this arbitrary start is false since Muharram was selected as the start of the era and not the supposed date of migration of the prophet.

It is an indisputable fact that had the new era been made to start according to a different marker such as the date of first revelation or the date of birth of the prophet or the date of the final victory of the prophet, etc. then people here who happily embrace the traditional timing would have been fasting in an entirely different month. So for example, had the beginning of the new era been set to 3 years earlier then they would be fasting in what was Shaaban a month earlier. In addition to the beginning of the era, the order of the months in this new era is completely arbitrary. So what sectarians are doing right now is essentially fasting a completely random month and this is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute.

3. The traditional timing ignores the fact that the year is certainly solar in the great reading:

According to 17:12, daylight and night are used to determine the number of years. Since day and night are a function of the sun and not the moon, then the year is certainly solar or luni-solar.
 
4. The traditional timing violates 9:36:

By assuming that the word ?shahr? means a lunar month and given the fact that the year is solar as shown in (3), the traditionalists actually count 12.3 months in a year and not exactly twelve. 

5. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in a month while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.

6. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 2:184

Traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the abstinence is for a month while 2:184 is clearly saying ?a few days?. Some try to make up excuses by making up a new meaning for ?ma3doodat? as ?any number?. So now they create another problem by implying that the god is giving superfluous useless information. This false understanding also creates another problem further down in 2:185 when the passage mentions ?completing the count?. If the count is already known as ?30 days? or ?29 days? then both ?any number? and ?completing the count? become useless and unnecessary information.

These are just 6 problems with the traditional understanding and I am sure that there are more but I already wasted enough time stating what should be obvious to everyone but unfortunately isn?t as evident by all the confusion. So let me move to the next point of view on timing:

- The timing according to Anwar (ProGod):

Basically, Anwar acknowledges the meaning of ?ramadan? so this way, at least initially, he avoids issues (1), (2) and (3) in the traditional timing. However, his theory still suffers from the following problems and he later reintroduces issues (1), (2) and (3) as we will see below:

1. Anwar?s timing violates 9:36:

He invents an imagined meaning for ?shahr? as a 30 day month when it is an indisputable reality that no lunar or even solar calendar has constant 30 day months. So he actually counts 12.17 of his imaginary months in a year and not exactly 12.

The closest calendar to what Anwar is proposing is the ancient Egyptian calendar, which had twelve 30 day months and a thirteenth month that lasted only 5 days.  This 5 day month was a national holiday that they conducted festivals on.

Unlike ancient Egyptians, Anwar is completely silent on what he is doing with the extra five days. I am really surprised given how several here are jumping to make up non-existent issues to criticize the timing that I proposed that no one has pointed his attention to this glaring issue of the missing five days. It probably has to do with people unconsciously focusing on the point of view that has more merit and is thus more threatening to their status quo. At any rate, back to Anwar?s five vanishing days. If he ignores them as he seems to be doing then his calendar will very quickly be out of sync with the seasons and thus he has unknowingly reintroduced traditional problems (1), (2) and (3) into his theory.

Anwar?s view is one that I am particularly familiar with because at one point perhaps five years ago or so I used to have the same exact view about the timing and the ?30 day? fixed month. Fortunately, I was able to progress with the god?s guidance beyond that understanding.

2. Anwar?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

Anwar claims that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in ?30 days? while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. So like traditionalists, this false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.

3. Anwar?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 2:184

This is the same exact traditional problem (6) discussed above in the Traditional Timing section.

- The timing according to Layth:

At one point Layth was embracing the same understanding that I had except that he had the scorching full-moon ending the restricted full-moons instead of beginning them. Now, in his latest article about the so-called Night of the Decree, he has presented a new understanding. The underlying premise of Layth?s understanding is his interpretation of 19:25.

He bases his entire thesis on when the palm trees mature. However, even if we assume that this is the correct interpretation then the harvest season when the palm trees mature varies greatly. There are hundreds of varieties of palm trees (there is over 100 varieties in Iraq alone). They mature at different times and are harvested at different times ranging from June through end of October. So the timing is uncertain. Add this to the fact that the time of the pregnancy is also somewhat variable and we have the interaction of two uncertain variables.

There is also another major problem. When one sees a palm tree with fully ripened dates, you can often see some ripened dates which had fell by themselves to the ground. However, if you have seen a mature palm tree up close and you actually tried to shake it, you would very quickly realize that this is not an easy matter like shaking a twig. Their trunks are not easy to shake even for a fully able strong man, let alone a woman in labor! Why do you think we see people climbing up palm trees to get the fully ripened dates during the harvest season instead of seeing everyone simply hugging a palm tree and shaking it? So how things happened in 19:25 could be very different from what is normal and would more likely involve some divine intervention to cause it to happen. So the entire episode of pregnancy, labor and dates falling down from the palm tree could very well involve some divine intervention and thus be different from what would normally happen.

In addition, Lyth?s timing suffers from the following problems:

1. Assumption that ?ramadan" is meaningless:

Like traditionalists, Layth assumes that the key word ?ramadan? in 2:185 is meaningless and thus its meaning has nothing to do with his timing.

2. Layth?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

Layth goes back to the meaning of ?shahr? as ?month? so this again creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

As for any other issues, I am not really sure since Layth ends the article with the following statement:

?This night is not only a blessed night in itself, but it also would bless the period around it explaining why the fast has been commanded to occur in the month of Ramadhan in which the Night of Decree is contained?

He doesn?t tell us when this supposed ?month of Ramadhan? starts or ends. So the reader is left with no information whatsoever on when it starts or ends or how long the abstinence is for. Given this deliberate vagueness then Layth is probably aware of those issues and couldn?t address them at that time. I am hopeful that he can address them in the future.

- The timing according to Ayman, Marie, Zenje, and many others who contributed to this present understanding:

First of all I would like to say that all good comes from the god and I don?t deserve any credit except for mistakes. In fact, one of the ideas that led to this understanding came at a time over four years ago when I was holding the same view as Anwar and I was debating with a Sunni on another forum that the month is 30 days. The Sunni fellow kindly pointed to me that one of the meanings of ?shahr? is moon and the moon cycle is not 30 days. I checked Lisan Al-Arab and indeed the meaning of ?full-moon? was right there. This led to shifting my mindset from thinking about ?shahr? in terms of the vague term ?month? and manmade calendars to god-given natural cosmic phenomenon.

Of course, this timing mechanism doesn?t suffer from any of the above problems. It naturally solves the problem of when the night of measure is without making any extra effort or speculating about uncertain factors. It is the only understanding that doesn?t violate 9:36 and in fact based on 9:36 simply and elegantly maintains the timing of the restriction in sync with the seasons.

I hope this helps everyone.

Peace,

Ayman

Nun de plume

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #328 on: September 12, 2008, 10:25:53 PM »
Peace Ayman,

What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.

Any evidence the word Ramadan is used in pre-quranic inscriptions, writings etc., as red hot?

If you have information to substantiate your theory then lets see it.


I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/24jun_moonillusion.htm

Editor's Note: If you miss the moon illusion on June 24th, try again on June 25th or 26th -- two nights with nearly-full moons. Or wait until July 23rd when the second full moon of summer arrives.


Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

It is 2008 and we have precise tools; thousand years ago they did not.

http://www.calculatorcat.com/moon_phases/phasenow.php

Why do all lunar calendars start with new moon waxing crescent and end with waning crescent and not full moon to full moon?

Peace

ramzi

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #329 on: September 13, 2008, 05:13:42 AM »

SO for those of us that realize something is wrong with the traditional islamic system it is up for us to honestly and unbiasedly investigate and try to arrive to the truth of the matter. BUt for those who don't realize I'm sure God accepts their fasting as he accepts ours if we our honest about our conclusions.


Yes, I like this statement  :)

Regards

Ramzi