Author Topic: Hot/"ramadan" Answer  (Read 421246 times)

rsw

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #310 on: September 11, 2008, 04:23:13 PM »
Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else

Soof

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #311 on: September 11, 2008, 05:01:56 PM »
Soof,

According to my understanding:

1. Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.

2. According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.

3. The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.

4. A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.

5. So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.


Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.

Godbless,
Anwar


Peace

Ok before I ask, I'm not trying to discredit your understanding or put any understanding I have over yours (as I know people can get sensitive about this). Is a month explicitly defined in the Qur'an or is every man woman child over the world supposed to know that a month is 30 qur'anic days from general consensus that is so apparent it doesn't need to be explained? A day is defined in the Qur'an, A night is defined, a year is defined. But the month? hmmm. God made it explicit for these periods of time so why not so for a month? (rhetorical) We all know the Qur'anic time measurement is not the same as the general time measurement (new day starts at 00:00) as you showed with qur'anic days so what is the Qur'anic month?

Peace
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afridi220

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #312 on: September 11, 2008, 05:24:41 PM »
Salam

Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.

 :peace:

[hide]Mecca Climatological Data
Month                    Jan      Feb      Mar        Apr       May        Jun J       ul        Aug       Sep        Oct        Nov 
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (108) 47 (117) 42 (108) 42 (108) 42 (108) 41 (106)         
                             Nov      Dec    Year
                           41 (106) 34 (93)   
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (88)  33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66)  22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (68) 17 (63) 12 (53)   
 
Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2)  61 (2.4)


[edit]
Peace


People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered; forgive them anyway

belH

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #313 on: September 11, 2008, 06:19:21 PM »
[hide]Mecca Climatological Data
Month                    Jan      Feb      Mar        Apr       May        Jun J       ul        Aug       Sep        Oct        Nov 
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (108) 47 (117) 42 (108) 42 (108) 42 (108) 41 (106)         
                             Nov      Dec    Year
                           41 (106) 34 (93)   
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (88)  33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66)  22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (68) 17 (63) 12 (53)   
 
Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2)  61 (2.4)


[edit]

Why are you so lost; it was not Mecca, but Madena; The Madena Weather is simmilar to Jordan.
Now go and find the same information for Madena and post it if you are looking after showing the truth
 :yes

progod

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #314 on: September 11, 2008, 06:31:52 PM »
Peace,

As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways:

1. The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.

2. In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.


Godbless,
Anwar
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belH

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #315 on: September 11, 2008, 06:36:32 PM »
Peace,



In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.


Godbless,
Anwar

Good Words. :sun:
And may God lead you and all of us to the Honest Truth.
Peace

Ahmad Bilal

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #316 on: September 12, 2008, 03:17:38 AM »
Peace to all,

The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year? There is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month. The verse simply says "shahru ramadhan".

(1) If "shahr" refers to a "month", then the scriptures refers to an intensely hot month.
(2) If "shahr" refers to a full-moon, then the scripture refers to a specifically hot time period of the full-moon, or perhaps a "scorching hot/red moon".

Either way, given the root of the word "ramadhan", it would have to occur during a hot time period.

Also, even the traditional submitters base their calculator for "shahru ramadhan" on witnessing/sighting the moon. That is what the reading instructs us to do - whoever "sights/witnesses" the moon was to fast the period, according to the scripture. Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon. And regardless, the determination for the "shahr" isn't based on an arbitrary timetable - it's based on witnessing the moon, regardless of if "shahr" means "month" or "full-moon"...

Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else

 :hmm Good question. May The God guide all of us to the truth.

Peace,

Ahmad
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Soof

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #317 on: September 12, 2008, 05:56:14 AM »
Peace,

As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways:

1. The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.

2. In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.


Godbless,
Anwar

Peace

OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is? Does it say 60 persons for 2 months? [Where did the definition of a Qur'anic month = 29 days come from?] is my main query, or is it something  that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an? If it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism. You are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance. The description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after.

Peace



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"No peace be unto you brother, peace be unto you." - Malcolm X

progod

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #318 on: September 12, 2008, 11:07:20 AM »
Peace,


Quote
OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is?

They didn't need Classical Arabic dictionaries because they spoke Classical Arabic. We need the dictionaries because we don't speak it anymore unless we learn it (inclduing the Arabs of today). They knew that a month was 29 (Jewish based, now called Islamic) days. When reading the Quran and figuring out that the Jewish-based way there were counting days was incorrect then they could have made the connection. The book was for our last prophet to preach it and for the whole community to study it and enact it. I honestly dont' think they realized this. In the Islamic histories (admittedly hadeeth based) the months were taken off of the pagan system (of adding months in certain years) after our last prophet passed. So I think this challenge fell on the shoulders of the generations after our last prophet and they made the wrong decision. The other conclusion would be that our last prophet with the believing community did make the correct changes but later generations opted for the pre-islamic nomenclature of months and the lunar system, keeping off addition of an extra month (making it a fully lunar calendar), but using foreign calendars for the solar system. Which is not entirely far-fetched seeing that the nominal Musilms (the Ummayads and others) tried to bring things back to the Jahillyah system as soon as the last prophet passed away.

Quote
Does it say 60 persons for 2 months?

Yes.  58:4 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

5:89 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads: 
Quote
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.

But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage.  But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.

Here are the two verses that lay down the rule: 2:183-2:184

Quote
[Where did the definition of a Qur'anic month = 29 days come from?] is my main query, or is it something  that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an?

Lisaanul-Arab. I saw it in another dictionary as well. i don't have acceess to it any more. I think it was mu'jamat al-lughaat.
This is a meaning that was once automatically known. In MSA (modern standard Arabic which is the closest thing to Classical Arabic still spoken) a month is known either as an Islamic month, a western one or any number of days around 30 days in general. But we are talking about in the past here. And the Classical dictionaries tell us what people considered a month in the past amongst Classical Arabic speakers. We are speaking of a time period of over 1400 years. For that reason we are referring to dictionaries that tell us how people automatically understood these word 1400 years ago. Hence the Classical Arabic dictionary.

 
Quote
If it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism.

I understand your point here. The fact here however is that it was being documented how Arabic was blending and changing and how in certain places it wasn't. We are at the point now (and have been for centuries now) where Arabic has totally blended and evolved everywhere, except in the academic and scholarly field, where they maintained what was once the natural language of all Arabs but is now an archaic Arabic like Elizabethan English is archaic to us. Hence MSA was derived after many official councils on the Arabic language in the 20th century to install an official langauge in the education curriculum and media use based in most part on the now archaic (Classical) Arabic found in the Quran, pre-islamic poems, the hadeeth and other discourse of people after that. This was done to respect the history of Arabic literature and to mitigate some of the many subtle differences and the somtimes stark differences between the blended evolved Arabics (often called dialects, 3aamiyah or darijah) of different regions (these are known as Khaliji (gulf), Maghribi (incluses hassaniyyah and shuba), Misri (includes Sudan and Egypt), Yamani (includes Soqotri and Mehri which are technically different languages than Arabic, Soqotri has more Arabic in it I believe), And Saudi (also a product of mixing because of the inflow of non-Arabic or dialect speaking Muslims from all of the conquered Arabic territories))

That is the history. All Classical Arabic dictionaries were dedicated to reaching the people who still spoke Classical Arabic after the Quran and checking, analyzing and recording their use of the language. Reading the prefaces of Lisan-Al-Arab or lane's lexicon will give you a better picture of how early the works are and the situation of Arabic at the time. These dictionaries are all after the Quran, but Classical Arabic was still being fluently spoken after the Quran. Seeing that there were few educational institutions early on besides Quranic schools, the widely spread rumorous hadeeths prove this point as well. The Hadeeths are pure rumor and all of them are in Classical Arabic, which confirms the language's existence as a commonly spoken language among Arabs and especially bedouin Arabs.

Now to put these dictionaries under skepticism would be equal to putting our dictionaries like webster and oxford's under criticism and saying that they don't apply to works like the constitution or other English works pre-1800. But a good dictionary like Oxford for instance (which is the one we would refer to for archaic Englsh works) dates meanings and quotations, espeically if they come from interpretations of religious or political scholars where the words have been embellished upon and changed from their original meanings.

So I hope you understand that

1. The effort of any dictionary is to record the use of the langauge it has dedicating itself to. 
2. If there were reasons to suggest differences in language B as it is spoken as opposed to records of how it was spoken before (Quran reciters, pre-islamic poem reciters being the ones to refer to) they would have been noted, and they were noted.
3. Dictionary writers checked with people who lived during the time of the prophet or shortly after his death as to how they used their language and their words.
4. All this may resemble the hadeeth but there is a major difference between verifying rumors and what people heard about the prophet and history surrounding him and how they spoke to each other and used their everyday words with each other(and being able to recognize if it is the same langaue as the Quran or not).
5. The Bedouins of that day were recorded as still using the same language and language structure as that found in the Quran, pre-islamic poetry and the hadeeths (as an every day house and street language in addition to a literate one for those who knew how to write) up to 300 years after the death of the prophet. After that the blended Arabic of the city areas where different cultures and ethnicities met and lived together (a result of Arab imperialism, Arab importation of foreign slaves as servants, international trade and the attraction of non-Arab Muslms to Arab centers of commerce and learning) began to fully affect bedouin speech as well.

Quote
You are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance.

I hate to say this but that is a bias of yours. You are requiring that God make what he says clear to the corrupt and the uncorrupt a like. The Quran says that the corrupt intentionally twist its words after understanding them, and also says that many of the corrupt fail to understand even it's clearest mandates. How can we know when the corrupt do understand but are twisting on purpose? We can't, because they won't openly admit this. To those of us who are honest that is heart-wrenching because we want to believe that all humans will be honest when it comes to these sorts of discussion, but I've learned that that just will not happen. And if someone doesn't understand because they don't want to, it is also impossible to get them to admit that. So i understand you but that is why it is up to the honest to be honest with themselves, clear themselves of bias and alternative agendas and to be on the look out for those who are also honestly searching, studynig, analyzing and concluding.

To me alternative agendas are easy to spot, but it is impossible to get people with these agendas to admit it to others, let alone themslves. I understand your sentiment, but it is not the Quran, it is the people.


 
Quote
The description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after

These are all your requirments and expectations. Honestly instead of demanding this of the Quran, demand this of your understanding of the book and its issues. That when you come to a conclusion it be as clear, unbiased and as non-convaluted as possible, and agrees with every Quranic verse on the subject and that it be as universal as possible. Remember that the Quran is for those who use their 3aql, not those who refuse to or choose to abuse. Unfortunately since we cannot control how justly and fervently peeople use their 3aql we can't guarantee that they would have understood this at the time of the Quran's revelation or after. That they understand the Quran as best as they can is all I think is required. So if the people at the time of its revelation honestly thought that their Jahillliyah month of Ramadan is what was meant then they did their best. If they realized that just 30 days during their local summer is what was meant then I think they were more correct in that estimation. If they though that the Quran validated their month names but not the way they added months to keep their year solar and that was their most honest assessment then they did their best. SO for those of us that realize something is wrong with the traditional islamic system it is up for us to honestly and unbiasedly investigate and try to arrive to the truth of the matter. BUt for those who don't realize I'm sure God accepts their fasting as he accepts ours if we our honest about our conclusions.
Do you see my points here?


Godbless,
Anwar

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Samia

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #319 on: September 12, 2008, 12:39:54 PM »
Yes.  58:4 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

Salaam Anwar, all

I know you expect me to respond, so I did not want to disappoint you  ;D. However, my question is not linguistic, but something that I was thinking of. I mentioned that I opted for the option of feeding the poor, but the verse does not say how many poor people, but mentions (compensation of feeding a poor) 2:184. I personally took it as a collective plural, although it could be just one.

My question: Does it mean fasting is only one day, or this sawm is not even "fasting from food and drink" but something else, or is it a third understanding? What do you think?