Author Topic: Hot/"ramadan" Answer  (Read 385540 times)

ayman

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Karma +13/-6
  • Gender: Male
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2004, 02:53:16 PM »
Peace sister Nadia,

It is good to see you back on the forum :)

Quote from: "savage_carrot"
wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?


Feeding of the poor would also be another mean of control since it is mentioned 5:95 with abstinence as corresponding to "qala'id" in 5:97. Moreover, feeding of the poor is mentioned in other signs as a substitute for abstinence.

Quote from: "savage_carrot"
Also, sister marie wrote :

Quote
I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon


This would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...


It is most likely that the great reading was descended in Arabia in the Northern hemisphere. Now is the night of measure only one where the great reading was descended long time ago or does it occur again and again at the specified time period?

I tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

ayman

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Karma +13/-6
  • Gender: Male
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2004, 03:08:31 PM »
Peace brother Someone,

Quote from: "Someone"
For how many nights the red full moon is visible?

For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 16:2 16:102 bringing the commands of the lord.


16:1 أتى أمر الله فلا تستعجلوه سبحنه وتعلى عما يشركون
16:2 ينزل الملئكة بالروح من أمره على من يشاء من عباده أن أنذروا أنه لا إله إلا أنا فاتقون
16:3 خلق السموت والأرض بالحق تعلى عما يشركون


I agree that 97:1 could be either interpreted to be talking about what we are reading (the scripture) or the "ru7"/spirit but either way the conclusion is valid. Don't forget that the "ru7" is what brought the scripture (see 42:52, 40:15, 26:192-195). The link is provided because the great reading was descended at the time of the scorching full-moon (2:185) and the great reading (or the ru7 that brought it) was descended in the night of measure (97:1).

Peace,

Ayman

Zlatan

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 611
  • Karma +0/-0
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2004, 07:49:04 PM »
Peace to you dear Ayman, all

Quote from: "ayman"


Quote from: "Zlatan"
second question,  how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods


From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.

I hope this helps.



thanks for the explanations, now it seems less subjective to me...(with the strong emphasis on less...)

Ayman, please, can you  explain shortly how do you deduce it?

However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that....  there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...

(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)

i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...

i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...

however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......

when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction by default...

at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution


Peace and all best wishes, Zlatan

idolfree1

  • Guest
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2004, 01:48:40 AM »
Peace be upon you all,

I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other. I think that is what we all lack and which is why we are having trouble accepting this, or perhaps still not 100% at the answer. I feel comfortable with this answer that Ayman has brought, but not 100% and I cant explain why.

Also, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?

Maythe God increase our KNOWlegde.

savage_carrot

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6683
  • Karma +16/-2
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2004, 07:36:14 AM »
Peace brother Ayman, Kyle, all...

Thank u for the observations on the abstinence and the night of measure...much appreciated!

Quote
I tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.


This way we would have at the very least, two nights of measure globally per one year, or 12 moon counts...as it can't be one given the nature of earth as spherical...I too am leaning toward this...have u any research that might lead u to believe that the 'night' of measure is only one? I haven't come across it but then again, it's easy to deduce that one night of measure would be equal in both parts of the globe thus leading to equality and once per ramadan even if it does occur twice annually in the big global yearly picture...one could witness the phenomenon twice obviously but don't need to complete the count once we already have in a year...that were the couple of observations we had while discussing it...

Also brother Ayman, if u can, please can u clarify the count as being 10 days maximum...i mean the meaning of the arabic word used as being a max of 10 and any other relevant info pertaining to this as i can't understand the meaning clearly enough to be able to explain it....Thank you!

Brother Kyle:
Quote
Also, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?


I think that the silence is part of a special fast/sign rather than a regular required thing in ramadan(i could be wrong)...Abstaining from food and drink and feeding the needy seems to be something that can be done on a regular basis yearly without much changing in the norm...apart from a lot of discipline required...Not talking would be difficult if you have a job to go to 6 days a week...unless u took a special leave of absence just for this purpose every year...do u think that's what is required? Every ramadan 10 days of time off from work? Or do u think that the weekends when one can do this is about enough? I haven't really researched this a lot, just wanted to know what u think?

Nadia
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Zlatan

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 611
  • Karma +0/-0
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2004, 08:14:56 PM »
Peace be upon you kyle

Quote from: "idolfree1"


I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other.


very well noticed!

this is one of amazing paradoxes when more mean less...

Peace, Zlatan

salgan

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 343
  • Karma +4/-0
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2004, 11:05:24 PM »
Peace Ayaman

Takeing your article on ramadan

Summer Solstice   Jun 21 2005   2:46 AM EDT

Full moon is June 22 2005

So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.

Peace Saleem
They Live We Sleep

idolfree1

  • Guest
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2004, 02:25:55 AM »
Peace be upon you Nadia,

Quote
Not talking would be difficult if you have a job to go to 6 days a week...unless u took a special leave of absence just for this purpose every year...do u think that's what is required? Every ramadan 10 days of time off from work? Or do u think that the weekends when one can do this is about enough? I haven't really researched this a lot, just wanted to know what u think?


I am not really sure of the answer, just want to make sure we do not reject a portion of the message. I take ALL of this message to be an example, it it just feels funny to me not to include this abstinence of SPEECH. It seems to me that the God sent WORDS to "adam" to redeem him. I am certain of the POWER of WORDS, but I wonder how much of the HUMAN POPULATION really understands it.

In any case, the time limit for abstaining from talk is only three days, not ten, so perhaps it is talking for the first three days, then eating drinking and sex for the next 7 days.

I don't know, just trying to keep up in this discussion  :D

idolfree1

  • Guest
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2004, 02:28:28 AM »
Peace be upon you Zlatan,

Quote
idolfree1 wrote:
I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other.  


very well noticed!

this is one of amazing paradoxes when more mean less...


Thank you brother. I am sure you could expand on this, assuming you are still practicing agriculture as you had chosen at one point.

I would love that oppurtunity to be self substaining (on a human level of course).

idolfree1

  • Guest
Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2004, 02:29:55 AM »
Peace be upon you all,

Just wanted to copy and paste Saleems question so it is not missed, I would like that confirmation as well so I can be sure and have more of a basis to analyze this understanding.

Quote
Taking your article on ramadan

Summer Solstice Jun 21 2005 2:46 AM EDT

Full moon is June 22 2005

So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.