Author Topic: Hot/"ramadan" Answer  (Read 449123 times)

ayman

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #330 on: September 13, 2008, 07:56:09 AM »
Peace Nun,

Any evidence the word Ramadan is used in pre-quranic inscriptions, writings etc., as red hot?
If you have information to substantiate your theory then lets see it.

There are many words in the great reading not used in pre-quranic inscriptions. So using your logic you might as well reject all of them.

As for the names of months, it is perfectly normal that we have these since many inscriptions end with the author writing "this was written on such date in the month of x in the year x". NONE of those months is named Ramadan. More importantly, the common meaning of the common noun "ramadan" fits in 2:185 so the great reading confirms the meaning. On the other hand, you have ZERO evidence for the traditional timing from the great reading.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/24jun_moonillusion.htm
Editor's Note: If you miss the moon illusion on June 24th, try again on June 25th or 26th -- two nights with nearly-full moons. Or wait until July 23rd when the second full moon of summer arrives.

The nearly full moons on the 25th and 26th were not as symmetric as the 24th one. Also, they will not take a path as low on the horizon as the one on the 24th and thus will not appear as vividly red as that one. So unlike the new-moon there is more than one factor and they all converge at the right time.

It is 2008 and we have precise tools; thousand years ago they did not.
http://www.calculatorcat.com/moon_phases/phasenow.php

The god's commands apply equally a thousand years ago as now. You never saw the new moon and you will probably never see it in your life. So you are arguing about something that you never witnessed and never will. On the other hand, everyone can easily witness the scorching full moon and I have witnessed it every year with my family since 2005.

Why do all lunar calendars start with new moon waxing crescent and end with waning crescent and not full moon to full moon?

All calendars are manmade. The god doesn't give us calendars or prohibit us from using any calendar. He gives us clear cosmic phenomenon for the purpose of timing the fast and the restriction on hunting wild life. Thus, the people of the book timed the major festivals according to the full moon. This further points to the full-moon being the original marker as confirmed in the great reading.

As I said and explained in the article and in the above posts, you have ZERO evidence for the completely arbitrary traditional timing from the great reading. So you are defending something which is indisputably completely arbitrary and entirely based on manmade decisions. Therefore, I would suggest that you study and come up with the correct timing based on the great reading before criticizing from the indefensible traditional position.

Peace,

Ayman

Samia

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #331 on: September 13, 2008, 08:23:05 AM »
Peace,

i want to answer Samia first and say that the fast is daily. The fast is only for 1 day duirng daylight hours (hence you break it the same day), and you fast each day for the whole month. So you are not fasting the month, you are fasting during the daylight hours each day during the whole month. So, Quranically, fasting only relates to one day of fasting, because you break your fast each night and start a new one the next day for a month during Ramadan. Hence if you don't fast, you feed one person for every fast you don't do during that month.

Salaam Anwar
You conjecture about shahr = month; two shahrs = two months
1 month = 30 days
>> two months = 60 days. You have no proof of any of the above, not even from Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Then you treat the conjecture as fact and force it on the verse of "ramadaan" !
How about this conjecture:
shahr: full moon
sharain mutataabi3in (two consectutive shahrs): one month
"man shahida minkumul shahra falyasumhu: who ever amongst you witnessed the full moon should fast it) = one day
no fasting = feeding one poor
not fasting one months (two consecutive moons/shahrs = 30 days) feed 60 poor because this is a punishment, so it should be tough).
Better than your conjecture, but still a conjecture.

progod

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #332 on: September 13, 2008, 08:49:59 AM »
Quote
Salaam Anwar
You conjecture about shahr = month; two shahrs = two months
1 month = 30 days
>> two months = 60 days. You have no proof of any of the above, not even from Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Then you treat the conjecture as fact and force it on the verse of "ramadaan" !
How about this conjecture:
shahr: full moon
sharain mutataabi3in (two consectutive shahrs): one month
"man shahida minkumul shahra falyasumhu: who ever amongst you witnessed the full moon should fast it) = one day
no fasting = feeding one poor
not fasting one months (two consecutive moons/shahrs = 30 days) feed 60 poor because this is a punishment, so it should be tough).
Better than your conjecture, but still a conjecture.

This is not conjecture if we make up for a daily fast by feeding 1 person then making up for two months of fasting by feeding 60 people is making it obvious that 2 months = 60 days.  Hence . . .
Shahr can mean full moon, but i don't think it means that in the Quranic contexts of fasting. Fating any month, like I said is fasting each day within it.  That is why expiation for fasting is done on a daily basis. I don't expect you to want to understand me, if think about it. Read thos scriptures more carefully and see what is being said. The month here is any month during summer. I would disagree as to whether you conjecture is better than my conclusion. However, I have never known you to be very sensible on any issue when it comes to these kinds of discussions. So believe what you will. May God guide us all. For those who see my point, thank you for studying the issue honestly. This is not an issue of making up things. It is an issue of trying to pull what is most logical out of the Quranic verses and put it into practice. I am not conjecture here I am concluding on facts. Those facts are:

1. To fast, Quranically, for a month is to fast each day during that month. That explains why expiation for missed fasts is dealt with on a day by day basis. Technically you are not fasting all of Ramadan because you are fasting the nights. So whereas you can say you are fasting Ramadan as a generality or a stereotype and not be incorrect, the specifics of the matter is that you are only fasting daily, and specifically during the daylight hours of Ramadan. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

2. This Quranic usage and its equating 2 months of fasting with 60 daily fasts shows very clearly what the Quran thinks of the word shahr (It's a 30 day period).

3. The word shahr has many different meanings, but the above shows that in the matter of fasting a 30 day period is what is preferred. The Quran's usage of the word shahr seems to be more conducive to a 30 day period than any moon phase. Remember that shahr can mean crescent moon as well. and in that case we can go back to the Islamic method of counting from crescent moon to crescent moon. As I said from the above i think the Quran prefers 30 days for a shahr. That is my conclusion. I think that is pretty simple and don't see how I can be accused of conjecturing here..

4. I am not an anti-traditionalists nor a pro-traditionalists. But I do beileve in logic, evidence and sound analysis of issues. I don't think it's necessary to go left field with my analysis unless there is no other way to make something in the Quran make sense, and stay consistent. I think the interpreting full moon here creates too many inconsitencies, Quranically and logically. But Ayman, Samia and anyone else are entitled to their opinions I just hope we all try to keep it logical, simple and consistent.

I think I've made my pints clear in this topic, see them if you will or dismiss them if you will. The honesty and integrity of your reasons and intentions that lead you to your conclusions is what God will judge you by.

Godbless,
Anwar
The Quranists Must Rise!

http://www.quranists.com

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #333 on: September 13, 2008, 09:00:41 AM »
Peace Ayman,

As I said and explained in the article and in the above posts, you have ZERO evidence for the completely arbitrary traditional timing from the great reading. So you are defending something which is indisputably completely arbitrary and entirely based on manmade decisions. Therefore, I would suggest that you study and come up with the correct timing based on the great reading before criticizing from the indefensible traditional position.

Why do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?

I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...

Quote
5. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in a month while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.

How is that a contradiction?

Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?

Its clear Quran was sent in a night 97:1 ?

97:3 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr

What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1

Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ?

Jul 2, 2004   Full at 2:09 PM

Jun 22, 2005    Full at 7:14 AM

Jul 11, 2006   Full at 6:02 AM

Jun 30, 2007   Full at 4:49 PM

Jul 18, 2008   Full at 10:59 AM

Jul 7, 2009   Full at 12:22 PM

Jun 26, 2010   Full at 2:31 PM

Jul 15, 2011   Full at 9:40 AM

adjwi

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #334 on: September 13, 2008, 01:35:03 PM »
Peace Nun de plume

Peace adjwi,

Use link below and check the full moon for your area after June 21st and notice sometimes they appear in the daytime and varying hours as well.

Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ? July 2008

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Jul 16, 2008      97.8%   
Jul 17, 2008                 
Jul 18, 2008      99.8%   Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 19, 2008      99.7%   


Take a look at the picture I posted earlier and imagine walking outside seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) stands out as does waning crescent C...





We're getting there anthony.

Peace

I appreciate your answer and the difficulty you present. Now, my understanding is that a ''Full Moon'' lasts an instant, then it is enters its phase of less illumination. Now if the question is how can you differ from a ''Full Moon''  and one that is becoming or one that was simply by looking, I agree it is indeed difficult. My answer was to look at it's rising and compare that time to that of the setting sun. Upon re-examining anew the schedule calculated for my location, I noticed that the occurance of the ''Full Moon'' (UT) seems to co-incide with a rising ''Full Moon'' simultaneously to that of the setting sun.

The day of the ''Full Moon'' is one of no darkness sort to speak. After the sun set, the moon rises before the darkness gains all of the sky. Afterwards, the next day and so on darkness seems to take hold up to the time when the moon rises. So to know when is the full moon, one is to watch the movie and not simply look at a picture.

The point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?

adjwi


belH

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #335 on: September 13, 2008, 03:42:09 PM »
Peace everyone,

I think that at this stage, it is best to summarize all the different viewpoints on the timing of the abstinence so that people can see the essence of each and not get distracted by all the noise. There are basically four points of view:

- The traditional timing:

We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems:



Peace all;

My answers to Aymans propaganda is here, http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597103.0, if you are interested to know about his misleading allegations; (this thread is getting to be so confusing)

Ayman, I'm Looking forward for a True debate with you so we can show the truth.
Salam

ayman

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #336 on: September 13, 2008, 05:59:15 PM »
Peace Nun,

Why do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?
I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...

If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?

How is that a contradiction?
Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?

It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?

Its clear Quran was sent in a night 97:1 ?
97:3 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...

Please see the etymology of the word "ShaHR" and see how the ancient Arabs used the term and its derivatives. In addition to full-moon, it also means something apparent, something bright, something big and round. Do you think that the ancient Arabs thought about the invisible full-moon that has not risen yet from below the horizon as the "ShaHR"?

Also, please look back on this thread and read sister Marie's excellent commentary on 97:3.

I would suggest that you try for yourself next year to witness the scorching full-moon. It is not just about percent illumination. It is about the full-moon taking the lowest path accross the horizon when it rises and thus appearing more red than the next day's full-moon. Therefore, this year in Mecca one had a choice between the full-moon on the 17th and the one on the 18th. However, if you observed the actual full-moon in Mecca you would see that the one on the 17th takes a lower path accross the horizon and rises more slowly to a maximum altitude of 43 degrees while the one on the 18th rises faster to an altitude of 46.6 degrees. So the one on the 17th in addition to being full would also appear more vivid red than the one on the 18th. Moreover, EVERYONE would have seen it and not had to rely on their Mullah or a computer to tell them when the timing is while they never actually witness it their entire lives. The idea is to start the fast the next day after one witnesses the "scorching full-moon". So observing the scorching full-moon in Mecca on the night of July 17th, you would start the fast on July 18th. This is true for all of the northern hemisphere. So whether in the US or in Europe you would have still fasted starting on the 18th. There is no doubt or confusion about that.

The calculations for Mecca below are from the following site:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php

MECCA                                                                         
E 40 00, N22 00                                           
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon                                             
Jul 17, 2008 
Zone:  3h East of Greenwich

 h  m   Altitude    Azimuth    Fraction Illuminated
18:50        1.7       118.1       1.00
19:00        3.6       119.0       1.00
19:10        5.5       120.0       1.00
19:20        7.4       121.1       1.00
19:30        9.3       122.1       1.00
19:40       11.2       123.3       1.00
19:50       13.0       124.4       1.00
20:00       14.9       125.7       1.00
20:10       16.7       127.0       1.00
20:20       18.5       128.3       1.00
20:30       20.2       129.7       1.00
20:40       22.0       131.2       1.00
20:50       23.6       132.7       1.00
21:00       25.3       134.3       1.00
21:10       26.9       136.0       1.00
21:20       28.4       137.8       1.00
21:30       29.9       139.7       1.00
21:40       31.4       141.6       1.00
21:50       32.8       143.7       1.00
22:00       34.1       145.8       1.00
22:10       35.3       148.0       1.00
22:20       36.5       150.3       1.00
22:30       37.6       152.8       1.00
22:40       38.6       155.3       1.00
22:50       39.5       157.9       1.00
23:00       40.4       160.6       1.00
23:10       41.1       163.4       1.00
23:20       41.7       166.2       1.00
23:30       42.2       169.1       1.00
23:40       42.6       172.1       1.00
23:50       42.9       175.1       1.00
00:00       43.0       178.1       1.00
00:10       43.0       181.2       1.00
00:20       43.0       184.2       1.00


MECCA                                                                         
E 40 00, N22 00                                           
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon                                             
Jul 18, 2008 
Zone:  3h East of Greenwich

 h  m   Altitude    Azimuth    Fraction Illuminated
19:30        1.3       114.3       1.00
19:40        3.2       115.2       1.00
19:50        5.1       116.2       1.00
20:00        7.1       117.2       1.00
20:10        9.1       118.2       1.00
20:20       11.1       119.3       1.00
20:30       13.0       120.4       1.00
20:40       14.9       121.6       1.00
20:50       16.9       122.9       1.00
21:00       18.7       124.2       1.00
21:10       20.6       125.5       1.00
21:20       22.4       127.0       1.00
21:30       24.2       128.5       1.00
21:40       26.0       130.0       1.00
21:50       27.7       131.7       1.00
22:00       29.4       133.4       1.00
22:10       31.0       135.2       1.00
22:20       32.6       137.2       1.00
22:30       34.2       139.2       1.00
22:40       35.6       141.3       1.00
22:50       37.0       143.5       1.00
23:00       38.4       145.9       1.00
23:10       39.6       148.3       1.00
23:20       40.8       150.9       1.00
23:30       41.9       153.6       1.00
23:40       42.8       156.3       1.00
23:50       43.7       159.2       1.00
00:00       44.5       162.2       1.00
00:10       45.2       165.3       1.00
00:20       45.7       168.5       1.00
00:30       46.1       171.7       1.00
00:40       46.4       175.0       1.00
00:50       46.6       178.3       1.00

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #337 on: September 13, 2008, 06:18:34 PM »
Peace Adjwi,

The point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?

Those questions have been answered several times on this thread. The fact that the restricted full-moons only purpose is wild life hunting restriction and wild life follows the solar cycle tells us that the period of the restriction must be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Everything has a purpose. The idea that everyone has to fast together to achieve "unity" is false as evident in the highly disunited and self-destructing so-called Islamic world today.

Peace,

Ayman

anthonywallace

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #338 on: September 13, 2008, 06:28:19 PM »
Peace aymen, and all

There is only one place to worship God at...    

He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...

You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...

All of you...

And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...

So now let us ask this, traditional or not:

Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2:183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?

 :peace:   8)

I am no different from the other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is inspired to me. I am no more than a clear warner.

ayman

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #339 on: September 13, 2008, 06:38:08 PM »
Peace Anthony,

There is only one place to worship God at...

No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.

He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...
You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...
All of you...
And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...

Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.

So now let us ask this, traditional or not:
Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2:183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?

No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2:183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2:185 as meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman