Author Topic: Hot/"ramadan" Answer  (Read 378036 times)

marie

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2004, 05:03:54 AM »
Peace brother Ayman,

Quote
Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2:184 because then you are building a circular argument.


In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (2:80, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20).

I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.


You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.

Quote
Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time.  :)


This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.

For the moment, I have not the response to several points.




Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you  :twisted:

Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a  guide and especially during the night of alqadr (97:1)

If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of  alqadr (97:1-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (36:39)

97:1 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati alqadri

97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu alqadri

I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon  :twisted:


97:3 The Night of alqadri is better than a thousand months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin

36:39 And the moon: We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemi

Peace
Marie
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ayman

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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2004, 10:45:24 AM »
Peace sister Marie,

Quote from: "marie"
In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (2:80, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20).


I totally agree, "maAAdoodat" doesn't mean a known number but a few days (a "few" by definition is between 3-10) and not specifically 10 days.

Quote from: "marie"
I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.


To complete "alAAiddat" of "maAAdoodat", which we already agree means a few (between 3-10) means complete/reach the maximum of a few/"maAAdoodat" which is 10.

Quote from: "marie"
You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.


But "ahilat" are only described as "mawaqeet" for people and for "7ajj" not for "ramadan". We agree that the term "ramadan" is season related. In other words, scorching heat or in your case the time between "sayf" and "kharif" (which is called "qayth" according to Lisan Al-3arab).

The term "mawaqeet" is the timing of the start, end, or start and end. One cannot use "hilal" to time any 12 periods because there are actually 25 "hilals" on average in a year. Please remember that "hilal" denotes both thinning and widening crescents.

One cannot use "hilal" to time both the start and end of the several 40 day periods talked about in the great reading or the 10 day period of "7ajj" and of abstinence. Hence, it must be that the "hilal" in those cases is used to time either the end or the beginning. Given the evidence, it is most likely to be used as a timing device for the end of "7ajj". Remember 2:189 and the example of ENTERING through the obvious/clear and apparent one front door ("the obvious one full-moon") and not the non-obvious back of the house ("the unobvious crescents"). However, there is nothing that says that we can't EXIT the house through the unobvious back doors.

Quote from: "marie"
This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.

For the moment, I have not the response to several points.

Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you  :twisted:

Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a  guide and especially during the night of alqadr (97:1)

If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of  alqadr (97:1-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (36:39)

97:1 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati alqadri

97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu alqadri

I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon  :twisted:


97:3 The Night of alqadri is better than a thousand months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin

36:39 And the moon: We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemi


C'est magnifique. :) Thank you sister for your excellent observation. When we reach the proper understanding everything falls into place and the age old mystery of "laylatu al-qadr" solves itself. I didn't even notice that the article inadvertently solved when exactly "laylatu al-qadr" occurs until after I had completed it.

Paix and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

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Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2004, 10:02:47 PM »
Peace brother Ayman,

I did not know that you speak French, it's wonderful  8)  

About the night of alqadr; the night when we start probably the measure of the counted days "ayyam maAAdoodat"; below another verse which can corroborate this meanings :

Quote
6:96. Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
 
Faliqu al-isbahiwajaAAala allayla sakanan waalshshamsa waalqamara husbanan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi


The same word "taqdeer" is also used in  36:38, 41:12, 76:16

The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence :

1) to approach your women sexually
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;

Allah said that the night of alqadr  is peaceful until the coming of dawn (97:5)


I notice that there is two commun points between 97-1-5, 89:1-2 and 2:187:

1) The night
and
2) the dawn

Quote
89:1. By the dawn.
Waalfajri

89:2. And the ten nights.
Walayalin AAashrin


We can see a connection between these verses :twisted:

89:3.And the even and the odd.
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri

Maybe the even and the odd corresponds to ten night and ten days of siyam, for example two nights corresponds to one day and two days (2D) corresponds to three nights (3N)...etc


2N (even)---> 1D (odd)

3N---> 2D

4N---> 3D

5N---> 4D

6N---> 5D

7N---> 6D

8N---> 7D

9N---> 8D

10N---> 10D (an even number of days and nights)


Looking for your toughts

Thanks

Marie
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http://hanif.free.fr/

ayman

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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2004, 05:29:34 AM »
Peace sister Marie,

Quote from: "marie"
I did not know that you speak French, it's wonderful  8)


Quand j'?tais petit, la langue Fran?aise ?tait ma seconde langue apr?s l'Arabe. Mais maintenant je manque du pratique et ce n'est plus facile pour moi. Heureusement, mon ?pouse est un professeur de Fran?ais. :)  

Quote from: "marie"
About the night of alqadr; the night when we start probably the measure of the counted days "ayyam maAAdoodat"; below another verse which can corroborate this meanings :

Quote
6:96. Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
 
Faliqu al-isbahiwajaAAala allayla sakanan waalshshamsa waalqamara husbanan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi


The same word "taqdeer" is also used in  36:38, 41:12, 76:16

The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence :

1) to approach your women sexually
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;

Allah said that the night of alqadr  is peaceful until the coming of dawn (97:5)


I notice that there is two commun points between 97-1-5, 89:1-2 and 2:187:

1) The night
and
2) the dawn


Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
89:1. By the dawn.
Waalfajri

89:2. And the ten nights.
Walayalin AAashrin


We can see a connection between these verses :twisted:

89:3.And the even and the odd.
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri

Maybe the even and the odd corresponds to ten night and ten days of siyam, for example two nights corresponds to one day and two days (2D) corresponds to three nights (3N)...etc

2N (even)---> 1D (odd)

3N---> 2D

4N---> 3D

5N---> 4D

6N---> 5D

7N---> 6D

8N---> 7D

9N---> 8D

10N---> 10D (an even number of days and nights)


1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence

It makes perfect sense. Merci Beaucoup.

Paix,

Ayman

marie

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« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2004, 07:50:01 PM »
Peace brother Ayman,

Your French is perfect :)

Quote
Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.


No need to ask the permission.

All praise to the God

Quote
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence


Just a little remark, in 89:2, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong,  to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights:


1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 Ten nights (89:2)


......1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2:184)

1: the night of alqadr; the night of the first days 1 of abstinence


10: the 10th night is the night of the 10th days 10 of abstinence


In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.


Peace and all best wishes

Your sister Marie
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ayman

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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2004, 03:21:38 AM »
Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for your kind help sister. :)

Quote from: "marie"
Just a little remark, in 89:2, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong,  to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights:


97:1-5 we hear the night of the measure being peace until "al-fajr".

89:1-2 we hear about "al-fajr" and then ten nights.

Let's call the night of "qadr"/measure Q.

Q to fajr........ 1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 fajr + Ten nights (89:1-2)

................1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2:184)

Q: the night of alqadr; the night before the first day 1 of abstinence

Remember we have to witness the "shahr"/full moon first before we abstain.

10: the 10th night is the night of the 10th day 10 of abstinence with which we complete the abstinence as per 2:187 ("atimu al-siyam ila al-layl").

On that 10th night we would see the thinning crescent signaling the end of the abstinence and hence not abstain the next day (Just in case we forget to keep track of the number of days).

Quote from: "marie"
In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.


I agree. However, in the case of abstinence in 2:187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

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« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2004, 06:07:53 AM »
Peace brother Ayman,

Quote
In the case of abstinence in 2:187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.


Agree,  the night of "qadr"/measure is the night before the first day of abstinence, but we start to follow what is said in 2:187 from the night "qadr"/measure  in other word :
1) It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually.
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn

The night after the 10th day of abstinence is an ordinary night where we have no obligation to follow about eating, drinking and the sexual relations with our spouse.

In my opinion, the night of "qadr"/measure is the first night of abstinence and the 10th night is the 10th nights of abstinence.

We have to complete the 10th day of abstinence until the night not with one more night.  The 11st night  should be not counted because it is an ordinary night where we have no obligation (2:187 is not applied for the 11st night).

We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2:187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.

When we witness the full moon of the night  of "qadr"/measure, we have to abstain it and wehave to apply 2:187 from this first night.

Consequently, 10 nights and ten days of abstinence according  the quran.

I wonder a question, if to complete the count is equivalent to ten dfays, the re is no need to witness the hilal to stop abstinence.

According 2:189, there is no mention to use hilal/cresnet for abstinence.


Looking for your comment

Peace
Marie
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zenje

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« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2004, 07:06:19 AM »
Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,

I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.

Peace be with you.

Zein
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ayman

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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2004, 02:24:50 PM »
Peace sister Marie,

I would agree with your understanding except a problem comes up when we compare 2:187, 97:5 and 89:1-3.

The "fajr" in 89:1, 2:187, and 97:5 is probably the same one.

Quote from: "marie"
We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2:187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.


I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 89:1-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.

Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(97:1-5, 2:187) - (89:1-2)

"fajr" is common.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2004, 06:52:15 PM »
Peace Brs Ayman, Zein,

Quote from: "zenje"
Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,

I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.

Peace be with you.

Zein


Thanks for your nice words. All the readers of this debate are so patient  :)

Our Lord grant us patience, and make firm our foothold.

Quote from: "ayman"

I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 89:1-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.

Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(97:1-5, 2:187) - (89:1-2)


I arrived to the same conclusion than you this morning, praise to the God :)

Thanks
Marie
And He is the God, there is no god but He.
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