Hot/"ramadan" Answer

[zenje]

Peace brother Ayman,

I finally read the articles and the rest of the posts here, and I must commend you on a job well done!  From all the conjecture and guess work that we've been through, this is the closest to reality and truth that I've seen. So far, I don't think there would be any confusion in this system.

Just wanted to mention that I found this connection interesting;

2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

2:196.   And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

7:142.   And We appointed for Moses thirty nights and completed them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was completed at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: ?Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters.?


And this is my own addition... which probably doesn't make much sense. :oops:  

28:27.   He said: ?I wish you to marry one of my two daughters, on condition that you work for me through eight pilgrimage periods; if you complete them to ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, God willing, of the righteous.?

[ayman]

Peace brother Zein,

Thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. It is you who originally reminded me and got me started thinking about this issue again after I had given up.

You bring some more excellent clarifying evidence from the great reading. I will add this excellent evidence to the article.

With all best wishes and peace,

Ayman

[marie]

Peace Ayman, all,

2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

This expression "let him abstain it" doesn't mean to start abstinence when we witness "ashasha-hr" but to abstain sha-hr ramadan (IT) which is a period like the other retricted periods. There is no starting in this verse but abstainning a fixed period : sha-hr ramadan

To abstain the full moon or the new moon doesn't make sence.

Whatever the solar or lunar calendar, there are 12 periods per years, what is wrong with this?

The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (9:36)
This a fact and not an approximation, there is only twelve periods in God?s record.

In 2:187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it should be valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
We cannot apply this "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" for some areas  during some seasons because  there is no night or no day.

Fasting is decreed for us as it was decreed for those before us (2:183), we have to follow the same commands.

Allah always fixes the days of fasting : 3 days (5:89), 3+7 days (2:196), two sha-hr/period (4:92, 58:4). The period is also fixed in 2:185 which is the period of ramadan.

2:197. Alhajj is in periods which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform (alhajj) in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.

Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi


From the verse above, it is clear that Allah leaves it to our convenience to choose in which period(the four restricted periods) to perform Alhajj, we are free to do it at any moment during the restricted period we choose, to start "alhajj" when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition.

But "hilal" doesn't mean "new moon" and this is a meaning that you are simply forced to assume in order to make it seem as if your interpretation works.

Hallatun can mean the first rain

Hallatu alqamar = the start of the moon (t0)

In order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, the season of autumn is the best period to attain this goal. This is why I choose early automn as meaning for ramadan instead of extrem heat.

The weather is also hot during automn season in some countries.

The word "meeqat" is used through the quran several times. In my opinion,there is no connection between the crescent and meeqat neither in 7:142 nor in 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17.  

Another example the word mawqoot is used for salat and it refers to the sun movement.

It is "ahila(t)" that are "mawaqeet". As far as I know, the sun is never described as "meeqat/mawaqeet".

In 7:142, Allah fixed 40 nights, the complete term (meeqat) = 40 nights. How simple to count 40 nights? we have only to abserve 40 sunsets. You complicate the problem, both the moon and the sun serve to count the years, and measure the time (17:12, 6:96).


Allah knows best

Marie

[ayman]

Peace sister Marie, all,

This expression "let him abstain it" doesn't mean to start abstinence when we witness "ashasha-hr" but to abstain sha-hr ramadan (IT) which is a period like the other retricted periods. There is no starting in this verse but abstainning a fixed period : sha-hr ramadan

To abstain the full moon or the new moon doesn't make sence.

In 2:185 we are directly and clearly told to abstain it and to complete the count of the days (also previously talked about in 2:184). If I tell you "abstain today and complete 10 days", what doesn't make sense about that?

It doesn't make sense to you because you ignore the Arabic meaning of "shahr" and wrongly interpret it as the fuzzy "period", which could be anything since even half a day is a period.

Whatever the solar or lunar calendar, there are 12 periods per years, what is wrong with this?

Please do the math sister. 365/12 gives a greater number of days than the lunar cycle. Hence, the 12 lunar cycle you are proposing is not the 12 "shahr" talked about in 9:36. You will remain stuck here until you see that there is a difference between "3adad" and "3ida(t)" and that The God doesn't use them haphazardly.

The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (9:36)
This a fact and not an approximation, there is only twelve periods in God?s record.

A day is a "period" and even half a day is a "period". So your saying that there is twelve periods doesn't tell us anything. You are forced to be vague because you know very well that there aren't 12 new-moon cycle in a year and that is a fact. This is why the so-called Islamic calendar that you are advocating is not in-sync with the year. You are advocating the current traditional calendar without knowing because you then contradict yourself and say that "ramadan" is in the autumn, which means that you would have to add a 13th month every three years to keep the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons.

In 2:187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it should be valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
We cannot apply this "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" for some areas  during some seasons because  there is no night or no day.

Fasting is decreed for us as it was decreed for those before us (2:183), we have to follow the same commands.

I agree.

Allah always fixes the days of fasting : 3 days (5:89), 3+7 days (2:196), two sha-hr/period (4:92, 58:4). The period is also fixed in 2:185 which is the period of ramadan.

"Period" could be anything. Please be specific sister. If you think that "shahr" means "the period between two new moons" then say it but then your explanation would contradict 9:36 and your "ramadan" would be disconnected from the seasons.

According to my understanding, The God gives the complete info we need in 2:185.

2:197. Alhajj is in periods which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform (alhajj) in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.

Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi

From the verse above, it is clear that Allah leaves it to our convenience to choose in which period(the four restricted periods) to perform Alhajj, we are free to do it at any moment during the restricted period we choose, to start "alhajj" when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition.

So now you change your mind and say that "when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition", in other words it is any period and that the "ahila(t)" are not timing devices for "al-7ajj"/the debate anymore. I am sorry sister but the "ahila(t)" definitely time the "7ajj" according to 2:189. My interpretation is that they time it by telling us when it ends.

Hallatun can mean the first rain

That is not a meaning that is supported by the context in the great reading.

Hallatu alqamar = the start of the moon (t0)

Here is the meaning given by all classical Arabic dictionaries for "hilal"/plural:"ahila(t)":

الهِلالُ: غُرَّةُ القَمَرِ أو لِلَيْلَتَيْنِ أو إلى ثلاثٍ أو إلى سبعٍ وللَيْلَتَيْنِ من آخِرِ الشهرِ سِت وعشرينَ وسبعٍ وعشرينَ

Clearly, it doesn't mean the new moon but it means the crescent moon in general.

Notice how you say "hallatu al-qamar" so do you finally admit that "al-qamar" doesn't mean full-moon but simply means "moon". Please close this issue.

In order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, the season of autumn is the best period to attain this goal.

Who says so? I already gave you the example of autumn being the best time for deer hunting in the northern hemisphere. Please give any scientific references to what you are claiming.

This is why I choose early automn as meaning for ramadan instead of extrem heat.

Since you start in autumn, I think that you mean to say autumn - early winter. Besides your alleged restricted new-moons would float every year and would not always occur in autumn so until you somehow fix this error, you can forget about autumn.

The weather is also hot during automn season in some countries.

No it is not what people normally associate with heat. In fact, in Arabia autumn is the rainy season.

The word "meeqat" is used through the quran several times. In my opinion,there is no connection between the crescent and meeqat neither in 7:142 nor in 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17.

In all those instances (except 7:142 and 7:155) we are told about the specific timing device used. for example, we are told in another verse that the meeqat in 26:38 is "ywm al-zinat" (the time/day of beautification). As for the others, their timing is specifically "the day of judgment". In 7:142 "ahilat"/crescents, the general "meeqat" for people, is most likely to have been used because it is also talking about NIGHTS. We know that nights is when the crescent would be apparent.

Another example the word mawqoot is used for salat and it refers to the sun movement.

It is used for "kitab"/book and we are told about the specific times for learning the book/"salat" in the great reading.

In 7:142, Allah fixed 40 nights, the complete term (meeqat) = 40 nights. How simple to count 40 nights? we have only to abserve 40 sunsets. You complicate the problem, both the moon and the sun serve to count the years, and measure the time (17:12, 6:96).

Which is easiest and more efficient? counting 40 nights or counting 2 full-moons and 10 nights (or until the "hilal" stage appears). The answer is clear.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

[marie]

Peace brother Ayman,

In the light of the quran AAiddat or AAadad is a number and AAiddat is a fixed number:

The count (AAiddata) of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth (9:36)

so as to circumvent the count (AAiddata) that God has made restricted (9:37)

four of them are restricted (9:36)

Say: ?My Lord is fully aware of their number (AAiddatihim), none know them except for a few.? (18:22)

As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim (AAiddatuhunna) shall be three months.(65:4)

You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).

I try to use the quranic evidence and I don't trust the meaning given by the dictionnaries neither for salat nor for sha-hr...

I understand your view and I have mine.

I prefer to stop the debate at this stage looking for other quranic argument Insha'Allah. I believe the clear response is in the quran.

I always learn from your good articles.

Thanks

Peace and best wishes

Marie

[ayman]

Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for helping in validating the article and improving our understanding through the debate.

You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).

I agree that it is simple to align the full-moons with the seasons. All we have to do is count only 12 full-moons and not count 13 even in the occasional year where their absolute number is 13.

You say that it is simple to align the two systems and yet you do not tell us anything about this simple alignment method or how to do it without violating 9:36-37. I look forward to hearing your simple solution when you figure it out.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

[marie]

Peace brother Ayman,

Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for helping in validating the article and improving our understanding through the debate.

I think you speak about the verse about quraysh. At school we learned that there is four seasons : 1) khareef (automn), 2) shita (winter), 3) rabi3 (springs) and 4) sayf (summer).
You have said that "qayzh" is after sayf and before automn but according what I have learned, this is automn  which is between sayf (summer) and shita/(winter). There is no reference of qayth in the quran.
The names of the lunar calendar periods have not systematically a link with the seasons.

Which of the two definitions should we believe?

For the moment In the light of the quranic arguments, I I lean towards early automn.
Another problem, we cannot apply 2:187 in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer and cannot  adjust 2:187 for some people.

You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).

I agree that it is simple to align the full-moons with the seasons. All we have to do is count only 12 full-moons and not count 13 even in the occasional year where their absolute number is 13.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the years where we count 13 full moons that doesn't mean there is 13 periods/months. I also think that sah-hr means period and not full moon.

AAiddat in the light of the quran is also equal to twelve (9:36), we cannot say that AAiddat is a number < or = 10.

To complete the count refers to the period of ramadan (2:185) and not to 10 days.

You say that it is simple to align the two systems and yet you do not tell us anything about this simple alignment method or how to do it without violating 9:36-37. I look forward to hearing your simple solution when you figure it out.

By adding the thirteenth month/period, I don't consider this addition as a violation of 9:36-37 because the 13rd period is an imaginary period which doesn't exist, it is added only to align the two systems.

The calendular and solar systems have only twelve periods.

Allah knows best

Marie

[ayman]

Peace sister Marie,

I think you speak about the verse about quraysh. At school we learned that there is four seasons : 1) khareef (automn), 2) shita (winter), 3) rabi3 (springs) and 4) sayf (summer).
You have said that "qayzh" is after sayf and before automn but according what I have learned, this is automn  which is between sayf (summer) and shita/(winter). There is no reference of qayth in the quran.

There is no reference to "kharif" or "qayth" in the great reading. This doesn't mean that those seasons don't exist.

What you have been taught in the school is Modern Arabic defintions NOT Classical Arabic definitions. We know from archeological and linguistic evidence that the Arabs used 4, 5, and 6 season systems. Even their 4 season system was different than the modern 4 season system that you were taught in school. Here is what Lisan Al-3arab says about the definition of the seasons in the 4 season system that some Arabs used:

العرب تقول : السنة أَربعة أَزمان , ولكل زمن منها ثلاثة أَشهر , وهي فصول السنة : منها فصل الصيف وهو فصلُ ربيع الكَلإِ آذارُ ونَيْسانُ وأَيّارُ , ثم بعده فصل القيظ حَزِيرانُ وتَموزُ وآب , ثم بعده فصل الخريف أَيْلُولُ وتَشْرِين وتَشْرين , ثم بعده فصل الشتاء كانُونُ وكانونُ وسُباطُ .

From the above, you can see that even for the Arabs that used 4 seasons "sayf" was spring, "qayth" was summer, "kharif" was autumn, and "shitaa" was winter.

Please remember that what we are after is not how present day school children and modern Arabs understand terms such as "sayf" but how a "pre-quranic" Arab hearing Chapter 106 would have understood it.

For the moment In the light of the quranic arguments, I I lean towards early automn.

You can lean towards anything you want but you have to consider the fact that when a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) was a HOT time of the year (9:81). You can't ignore that.

Another problem, we cannot apply 2:187 in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer and cannot  adjust 2:187 for some people.

According to your argument, "in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer" there would also be no "salat al-fajr" or "salat al-3ishaa" for some people. Of course, this is incorrect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the years where we count 13 full moons that doesn't mean there is 13 periods/months. I also think that sah-hr means period and not full moon.

If you take "shahr" to mean "period between any two phases of the moon" then in every year there is going to be more than 12 periods, there will be 12.3 periods in your calendar. If you take "shahr" to mean "full moon" then you would get exactly 12 full moons and you would get a year with 13 full-moons every three years, however as I indicated since we are talking about "3idat" and not "3adad", you simply don't count the 13th moon. The would automatically adjust the full-moons to coincide with the seasons.

AAiddat in the light of the quran is also equal to twelve (9:36), we cannot say that AAiddat is a number < or = 10.

You are correct. However, in 2:184 we see the term "ma3doodat"/few/counted which we don't see in 9:36. The completion of the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" is always 10 in the great reading and brother Zein already kindly provided the references.

To complete the count refers to the period of ramadan (2:185) and not to 10 days.

Why does The God need to say "complete the count" if as you claim the count is a known period between two new-moons. This would be redundant.

Also, keep in mind that you have ZERO evidence for your "ahilat" meaning of "new-moons" since ALL the dictionaries say that they mean "crescents" in general (both thinning and widening crescents). Hence, if we take your interpretation for a period being the period between two "hilals" then it could be either 3 days or a median of 25 days.

By adding the thirteenth month/period, I don't consider this addition as a violation of 9:36-37 because the 13rd period is an imaginary period which doesn't exist, it is added only to align the two systems.

If you interpret "shahr" to mean period and see no difference between "3idat" and "3adad" then you are indeed violating 9:36. As you said, you are now counting 13 periods while 9:36 says to count only 12. I don't know what you mean by "imaginary". During that 30 day "period"  will you just imagine that time stopped and that reality ceased to exist for 30 days?

The calendular and solar systems have only twelve periods.

If you take period to mean "period between two new moons" and you want to keep it in line with the seasons then your calendar system has 13 periods in some years. The Georgian solar calendar has some arbitrary periods with 31 days and others with 30 and 28/29 days to make them 12. The so-called Islamic calendar has 12.3 months every year and not 12. Only in the system that I understood from the great reading do we count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY SINGLE year and it is in-sync with the seasons.

I hope this helps and as usual The God knows best.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

[marie]

Peace brother Ayman,

Several points in your reasoning remains fuzzy and approximate. A clear soklution should be based on all evidence quranic and this is not the case because that doesn't fit your final conclusion.

We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (2:80, 2:184, 2:203, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc
MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.

In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.

There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in  28:27 and 7:142.

We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7:142, 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17). Salat (timed book) is a good example.

We have not the same understanding of the verse 9:36.

Agree to disagree for the moment.

Thanks for patience and perseverence.

Marie

[ayman]

Peace sister Marie,

We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (2:80, 2:184, 2:203, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc

I agree.

MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.

In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.

Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2:184 because then you are building a circular argument.

There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in  28:27 and 7:142.

Is the number 10 in those verses not a counted number?

Sister, you have got to use some deductive reasoning and you can't expect the answer to be presented on a silver platter as "completing the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" = 10".

We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7:142, 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17). Salat (timed book) is a good example.

Actually, I have the same understanding as you of "meeqat" but it is you who doesn't have the same understanding as me. This is for the simple reason that I see "meeqat" as the timing of the START and/or END of something while you see it ONLY as the start. Therefore my understanding encompasses your understanding. So far, you have brought zero evidence that "meeqat" only means the start of something and never the end. The example of "salat" actually completely negates your understanding because "salat" has a START and an END.

We have not the same understanding of the verse 9:36.

Agree to disagree for the moment.

The only reason why we have different understanding of 9:36 is because you don't see a difference between "3idat" and "3adad". On the other hand, I believe and logically one can see that The God doesn't use those two different terms haphazardly. Let's at least agree on that.

We also agree that when one counts more or less than EXACTLY 12 "shahr", one would be in violation of 9:36. In the system as I understand it, one ALWAYS counts EXACTLY 12 "full-moons" EVERY year, while in your understanding because you don't see the difference between "3idat" and "3adad", you are forced to count 13 in some years to keep your alleged "period between two new moons" in line with the seasons.

Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman