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Translating 2:196

Started by Idris, October 24, 2004, 10:07:09 AM

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idolfree1

Peace be upon you MQ,

QuoteMan, 16/125 uses 'jaadilum billati hiyaa ahsaan' (argue them with that which is more beautiful/better', so i dont think i can agree with your categorisation there. Having said, 'hujjah' in Arabic refers to 'proof or argument', so I dunno, you might be right too.

16:125 is one of the best verses to understand the clarity between hajja(debating according to the God's message)and jidala(baseless arguing).

The God says to argue with them WITH THAT WHICH IS BEST, and that would be hajja(debating using the God's message).

(6:83) And that (is) Our debate, We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your Lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable.

A while back, I had a post in the hajj section with all of the verses of hajja and jidala listed, I am not sure if it is still there or not.

Idris, very good job bro!

(2:197) ...wala jidala fee alhajji ...

no baseless arguing in the debate  :D

Idris

peace hlatif,

Quote from: "hlatif"I am wondering why it would be wrong to understand the statement as is:

"And when you finish the HAJJ (pilgrimage) or Umra (little pilgrimage) you wait until you have given the gift (Hadiy) before you shave your heads as a sign that the Hajj has ended.  If you did not have enough money to offer the gift then you do what you can or give Sadaka or by fasting.  And if you have a disease in your head (meaning scalp) that you cannot shave your head then do something else."

To me this is the clearest way to understand the Aya.  It deals with specific orders relating to the end of the Pilgrimage.  If we believe that the Qur'an is easy to understand and clear then this is the easiest way to understand this Ayah.

Hussein
[/quote]

no, not if the sign is clearly mistranslated, your's may be easy to understand (only cause of words added in there while I refrained from doing so in my translation) but its easy to understand if translated literally as well (some of my translation was probably wrong), the translation you provided is heavily influenced by ahadith traditions, there is no pilgrimage according to the reading (quran), if you look at every single sign containing the word "hajj" you will find out it clearly means debate/challenge

And complete the debate and the promotion for The God. Then if in need then get what is easy from the guidance and don't overlook your basic until attaining what is made lawful from the guidance. Then whoever that is amongst you unfit or with him disturbances from his basic then compensate from abstaining or charity or sacrifices. Then when secure then whoever maintains with the promotion towards the debate then get what is easy from the guidance. Then those who did not find it, abstain three days in the debate and seven when you return. Those are ten as being complete. That is for those who had no (family) members participate in the restricted acts of compliance. And be aware of The God and know for The God is severe in the retribution. (2:196)
Workers and their families may starve to death in the New World Order of economic rationality, but diamond necklaces are cheaper in elegant New York shops, thanks to the miracle of the market.
-Noam Chomsky

hlatif

The word debate does not disagree with the idea of pilgrimage, because at the Hajj (pilgrimage, debate)  Muslims meet all other muslims and debate their issues as if they are in a conference.  

hussein

mz357

Salaams all,

did this a while back,might give you Br's a better insight into the trans - i hope,and God be with you Guy's.


according to meanings in lanes.

Hajja = He repaired or betook himself,to,or towards,much,or frequantly.
Haaj = Repairing,or betaking himself,to.
Umrun=He lived,or continued in life,long,or long time ,his life was/became
long.
Amara=He remained,continued,stayed,resided,dwelt,or abode,in a place.
Amaralkhraba=Made the ruin or waste to become in a state of good repair

Jadd=He was or became fortunate,or possesed of good fortune.
Haddy=way or manner of life.

I think i will just translate it rather then giving any more lanes meanings here.

2:196

And complete the Hajj and the staying for allah and if you are restrained then whatever is easy to obtain of the guidance/(new)manner of life/the way and do not be agile to hold your head high until reaches the guidance its alightenment and who ever is among you distempered or has annoyance in his head then (he must pay) ransom by fasting ,or be firm,or change your attention/focus,when you feel free from expectation of evil (anger) then whoever took advantage with the staying onto hajj-then whatever can be had with ease of the guidance and whoever(did)not become fortunate( to understand/accept) then fast three days in the hajj and seven when you have returned that ten in all that is for those is not his family in the presence of(who follow not) Almasjid alharam and fear allah and know that allah is severe in punishment.

Mahila=He alighted,or descended and stopped
e.t.c

The Hajj was just a condition (challenge)to the mushrikin - to surrender and learn and take on the new way - but if they carried on with law breaking living then they would be hunted and captured or killed.

See it all at surra 9.and surra 22,partly aswell.


Salaams.

Wakas

peace be upon you all,

I had a chance to work on 2:196 yesterday and this is what I came up with:


transliteration + literal translation side by side
Wa (and) atimmoo (complete) al hajja (the HJJ) wa (and) alAAuMRata (the 3MR) lil lahi (for God) fa-in (but if) ohsirtum (you prevented/confined) fama (then what) istaYSaRa (is easy) mina (from/of) alHaDYi (the offering/guidance) wala (and do not) taHLiQoo (cancel/relieve/high/sharp/active) ruoosakum (your head/principal) hatta (until) yablugha (reaches) alHaDYu (the offering/guidance) maHiLLahu (permitted/lawful place) faman (and whoever) kana (is) minkum (among you) MaReeDan (sick/ill) aw (or) bihi (with) athan (ailment) min (from/of) ra/sihi (head) fafidyatun (then redeem/exchange/ransom) min (from/of) SiYaMin (abstinence) aw (or) SaDaQatin (charity) aw (or) NuSuKin (observance) fa-itha (but if) amintum (safe/secure) faman (then whoever) taMaTaAAa (enjoys) bi (with/in) alAAumrati (the 3MR) ila (to) alhajji (the conference/symposium) fama (then what) istaYSaRa (is easy) mina (from/of) alhadyi (the offering/guidance) faman (and whoever) lam (not) yajid (find) fasiyamu (then abstain) thalathati (three) ayyamin (days) fee (in/on/during) alhajji (the HJJ) wa (and) sabAAatin (seven) itha (when) RaJaAAtum (you return) tilka (that) AAasharatun (is ten) kamilatun (complete) thalika (that) liman (for those) lam yakun (is not) ahluhu (his people) HaDiRee (present/near) almasjidi (the institute of acknowledging) alharami (the restriction) wa (and) ittaqoo (conscious) Allaha (The God) wa (and) iAAlamoo (know) anna (that) Allaha (The God) shadeedu (severe)  al (the) AAiqabi (punishment) [2:196]

(the capitals in some Arabic words represent the root, if one wishes to study them further)

literal translation
And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God but if you are prevented then what is easy from the offering/guidance and do not cancel/relieve/high/sharp/active your head/principal until the offering/guidance reaches its permitted/lawful place and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of their head then redeem/exchange/ransom from abstinence or charity or observance but if secure/able then whoever enjoys in the visit to the conference/symposium then what is easy of the offering/guidance and whoever couldn't find then abstain three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you return that is ten complete, that for those whose people are not present/near the institute of acknowledging the restriction, and be conscious of The God and know that The God is severe in punishment. [2:196]

my understanding
And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God but if you are prevented (from completing it) then give what is easy of the offering and do not relieve your head (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of the head then redeem by abstinence or charity or observance but if safe/able then whoever enjoys in the visit to the conference/symposium then give what is easy of the offering and whoever couldn't find (a suitable offering) then an abstinence three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you return, that is ten complete, and that is for those whose people are not present/near the institute of acknowledging the restriction, and be conscious of The God and know that The God is severe in punishment. [2:196]

my comments
How does one find out when the offering reaches its destination? Is this possible? Try and make sure it gets there?
Is this sign saying if you cant complete give HDY, and even if you attend give HDY? This could make sense because it says if you cant complete HJJ & 3MR, that means you are there but couldn't complete it so you could make sure it gets there but may not be able to attend the conference. Once its there, then leave.
If its possible for a person not to find a suitable offering/guidance, that means its unlikely to mean guidance. How could a person not find a suitable guidance? It makes more sense for it to mean offering.
Why does it mention being ill then the specific ailment of the head? Is it because the head will be used in the HJJ? (i.e. intelligence will be needed) Is this is to rule out those physically unable AND mentally unable?
If my rendering of the text is correct, then what is the situation for a person whose people are at or near the institute of acknowledging the restriction? Could it be related to the fact that if one's people were at or near the institute, its highly unlikely one would not be able to find a suitable offering?

Background reading
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3433
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2340

All feedback welcome.


Wakas
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Grourself

Peace Wakas,

Interesting.

I have a couple of questions to add to your questions  :) .

Why or how did you come to render amara as "visit"?

How does hdy become an offering?

I get something a little different from this sign and I think it is referring to the completed count of days in the previous signs.

Great effort.
41:33 And who is better in speech than him who invites people to Allah, tries to grow himself in goodness, fulfills the needs of others and declares, "Surely, I am one of those who surrender unto Him?"

Wakas

peace Grourself,

Thanks for the feedback.

I chose "visit" based on the evidence of the root 3MR:
http://www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.403.htm

If there is evidence to the contrary, then please bring it forth. 3MR essentially means to enliven (which leads to inhabit, to visit etc).

Same with HDY, based on its root usage, with specific reference to several signs (I dont have my concordance with me at the moment, but if I remember I will list them when I get back). It essentially means something of value given (which leads to gift, guidance, offering etc).

Please give us your translation so I can see your point of view.


Wakas
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Wakas

I have the references I was referring to for HDY:
2:196, 2:196, 2:196, 5:2, 5:95, 5:97, 48:25


Wakas
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Wakas

peace all,

I recommend reading some common/traditional translations. They attempt to explain away the problems caused by their own translation of 2:196 in various ways. I recommend reading Asad's note on www.quranix.net (lookup 2:196) and also here:
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=189&to=196

Here are some of the problems in brief:

1) from reply 71 http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.60
QuoteThus, the obvious question that comes to mind is, does an ailment of the head (e.g. baldness, injury on head, surgery on head etc) prevent one from giving what is easy of the offering and ensuring it reaches its proper place? The answer is of course, it doesn't. So, let's imagine the following scenario:

A bald man or person with injury on head cannot complete the HJJ/3MR, but they are able to give what is easy of the offering and ensure it reaches its proper place. So they do this. Sounds ok so far, BUT not if the person actually continues to read the rest of 2:196, because according to it, if he cant shave the head once the offering reaches its proper place he is meant to redeem by abstinence or charity or observance, so is he meant to do these things as well as giving the offering? Is AQ discriminating against bald people, those with injury on their head, sensitive scalp, head surgery, those wearing a toupe etc. and getting them to do more than a person with hair on their head? Of course not. Such notions are illogical and have no basis in AQ. The only other option is to say if he cant shave the head for whatever reason, then he skips giving what is easy of the offering and goes straight to abstinence or charity or observance, but of course, this has the same problem in that it treats such a person differently for no obvious practical reason.
The above would prioritise head shaving rather than giving of the gift which is nonsensical unless it can be explained.

2) if you give an offering how do you find out if it has reached its permitted place THEN shave your head? e.g. if one is ill I assume you give the offering to someone else to take, do you then wait for them to return and tell you "yes it reached there, you can now shave your head"? Really?

3) what do females do? shave or cut or nothing?

4) the word "hair" is not in the verse. No mention of what to do if one has no hair, as this is not necessarily a harm/ailment of the head.

5) the part at the end is translated differently "...this relates to him who does not live near the Inviolable House of Worship...". Read several translations to see the variance.


###

Putting the above aside, the word RAS commonly translated as "head" could mean something else, so by process of elimination what could it be?

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Quote= Ra-Alif-Siin = head, head/chief/commander/ruler/governor/prince, strike on the head, set any one over, become high in rank/condition, highest or uppermost part, the capital/principal of money, the beginning or first part, numerous and strong company of people.
ras n.m. (pl. ru'us) 2:196, 2:196, 2:279, 5:6, 7:150, 12:36, 12:41, 14:43, 17:51, 19:4, 20:94, 21:65, 22:19, 32:12, 37:65, 44:48, 48:27, 63:5

It could only mean: physical head, mind, principal sum, chief - based on classical arabic dictionaries, and reasoning.

We have already discussed the problems with physical head.

No classical arabic dictionary nor Quran use this word to mean "mind", as far as i know.

principal sums doesn't fit well.


Thus, the only meaning left with any credibility is "chief".
As a side note it just so happens that the exact same usage of "ruūsakum" (your heads/chiefs) is in 48:27. And it just so happens that early Islamic history discusses a formation of a confederation of sorts at the late stages of Muhammad's life and the uniting of tribes under one "roof" so to speak, and some such as Fred Donner imply the founding of a monotheist/believers movement.


Just something for you to ponder.  :)
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Mazhar

Quote4) the word "hair" is not in the verse. No mention of what to do if one has no hair, as this is not necessarily a harm/ailment of the head.

Heads are mentioned, and not skulls where one might not have hair-a bald one.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]