Translating 2:196

[Idris]

peace,

most of this can be checked regarding root word here
http://www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html

bear with me, this is my translation so far, can someone offer their insight to what I have so far and the rest of it?

Waatimmoo alhajja waalAAumratalillahi fa-in ohsirtum fama istaysara minaalhadyi wala tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu faman kana minkum mareedanaw bihi athan min rasihi fafidyatun min siyaminaw sadaqatin aw nusukin fa-itha amintum famantamattaAAa bialAAumrati ila alhajji famaistaysara mina alhadyi faman lam yajid fasiyamuthalathati ayyamin fee alhajji wasabAAatin itharajaAAtum tilka AAasharatun kamilatun thalika limanlam yakun ahluhu hadiree almasjidi alharamiwaittaqoo Allaha waiAAlamoo anna Allahashadeedu alAAiqabi

And take (waatimmoo) the debate (alhajja) and promote for The God (waalAAumratalillahi). Then if (fa-in) in need (ohsirtum) then what (fama)
is easy (istaysara) from the guidance (minaalhadyi) and don't (wala) cut off your principle (2:279 tahliqoo ruoosakum)until attaining (hattayablugha) the guidance (alhadyu) what is made lawful (mahillahu)faman kana (then whoever that is) minkum (among you) mareedanaw (unfit or)bihi (with him) athan  (disturbances) min (from) rasihi (his principle money) fafidyatun (then compensate) min siyaminaw (from abstaining or) sadaqatin (being truthful) aw nusukin (or sacrifices) fa-itha (Then when) amintum (secure)  famantamattaAAa (then whoever maintains) bialAAumrati ila alhajji (with the promotion towards the debate) famaistaysara mina alhadyi (then what is easy from the guidance) faman lam yajid (Then those who did not find it) fasiyamuthalathati ayyamin (abstain three days in the debate) fee alhajji (in the debate) wasabAAatin itharajaAAtum (and seven when you return)
tilka AAasharatun kamilatun (those are ten as being complete) thalika limanlam (that is for those who had no) yakun (participate) ahluhu (members) hadiree almasjidi alharami (in he restricted act of compliance) waittaqoo Allaha (and be aware of The God) waiAAlamoo anna Allahashadeedu alAAiqabi (and know for The God is severe in the punishment)


literal translation so far-
And take the debate and the promotion for The God. Then if in need then what is easy from the guidance and don't cut off your principle until attaining the guidance what is made lawful. Then whoever that is amongst you unfit or with him disturbances from his principle then compensate from abstaining or being truthful or sacrifices. Then when secure then whoever maintains with the promotion towards the debate then what is easy from the guidance. Then those who did not find it, abstain three days in the debate and seven when you return. Those are ten as being complete. That is for those who had no members particpate in the restricted acts of compliance. And be aware of The God and know for The God is severe in retribution.

what can be debated so far is my translation of tahliqoo ruoosakum as cut off your principle

what are your thoughts?

peace

[Grourself]

Peace Idris:

This is what I have to comment on so far:
وَأَتِمُّو

Waatimmoo: complete (quantity), finish

2:196 Complete the challenge/debate

5:3 "...This day I have perfected your DEEN for you, completed My favor upon you, and chosen for you Islam as the System of Life..."

6:115 "Perfected is the Word of your Lord in Truth and Justice. None can change His Words and His Laws. This announcement comes to you from the Profound Hearer, the Knower."


KAMALA-PERFECTED: To be or become whole, entire, perfect, complete; to be finished, done, completed, accomplished; to be concluded, come to a close.

English-Perfect: being entirely without fault or defect; flawless. Perfect implies the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing .

TAMMA-COMPLETE: To be or become complete, completed, finished, done; to be accomplished; to come to an end, free from deficiency.

English-Complete: to bring to an end and especially into a perfected state; to make whole or perfect

Note: The word ikmaal (perfecting) and itmaam (completing) which are noun-infinitives from akmaltu and atmmamta (have perfected and completed) occurring in the clause, ?This day have I perfected your deen for you and completed My favor upon you,? are full of meanings and convey two different and distinct senses.

The former (i.e., perfection) relates to QUALITY, and the latter (i.e., completion) to QUANTITY. The use of the word akmaltu (I have perfected) with regard to the teachings of the Qur`aan thus shows that doctrines and commandments effecting the development of man have been embodied in the Qur`aan in their most perfect form; while the word atmmamta (I have completed) shows that NOTHING WHICH WAS NEEDED BY MAN (for his salvation) HAS BEEN LEFT OUT.

Do you agree?

[Idris]

peace Grourself,

I agree, I'll change take to complete

And complete the debate/challenge and the promotion/prosperity for The God. Then if in need then what is easy from the guidance/gift and don't cut off your principle/basic until attaining the guidance/gift what is made lawful/permitted. Then whoever that is amongst you unfit/sick/ill or with him disturbances/injuries from his principle/basic then compensate from abstaining or being truthful or sacrifices. Then when secure then whoever maintains with the promotion/prosperity to/towards the debate/challenge then what is easy from the guidance. Then those who did not find it, abstain three days in the debate and seven when you return. Those are ten as being complete. That is for those who had no members/family participate in the restricted/sanctioned acts of compliance/submission. And be aware of The God and know for The God is severe in the retribution. (2:196)

[mquran]

Salaamun alaikum Idris, Grourself,

May I ask what you understand from your literal interpretation ?

shukran, brothers.

[Idris]

peace be upon you, mq

Salaamun alaikum Idris, Grourself,

May I ask what you understand from your literal interpretation ?

shukran, brothers.

sorry it took so long to respond, ain't been on the computer inawhile, anyways the concept of alhajj is taking the debate in order to counterreact slandering against God's deen (2:190-194), and umra would be the promotion of God's deen to promote the truth, so basically in order to carry this out we get signs from the guidance (an example of this is the Christians telling their followers the reading is about violence and intolerance and we get signs from the reading to prove them wrong), i'm not sure about "cuttiing off our basic" until attaining the guidance, I think it might mean don't stop our basic argument until its gotten clear across to the people, and if any from among the faithful can't participate or can't devise an argument then they should make up by abstaining, charity, or sacrifices (not animal but self sacrifice i.e. fighting in the cause of God), then when secure from the slandering then maintain promoting the debate and getting what is easy from the guidance to make up our arguments, and to those that can't find anything from the guidance to make a valid argument, as when the slandering was going on, they should abstain for three days in the debate and seven when returning (the fixed (3-10 as the word for it suggests) days in 2:184, hence 7 when we return to make it complete as 2:185 with the complete count), the abstaining is also for those who's family members didnt participate in the restricted acts of compliance (which is to fight against those that fight you (verbally in the debate) 2:190) once you start seeing 2:183-2:203 are all interconnected these signs become clear as day and you'll realize all the corruption that's taken place in translation and understanding, plus the debate it speaks of is actually a large meeting to debate much like what commonly takes place today 2:198-199 an example of this would be in the story of Pharoah, Moses, and the magicians inwhich they gathered to debate in front of a large crowd yet we see no examples of pilgrimage in any of the stories

what are your thoughts?

And complete the debate/challenge and the promotion/prosperity for The God. Then if in need then get what is easy from the guidance and don't cut off your principle/basic until attaining the guidance what is made lawful/permitted. Then whoever that is amongst you unfit/sick/ill or with him disturbances/injuries from his principle/basic then compensate from abstaining or charity or sacrifices. Then when secure then whoever maintains with the promotion/prosperity to/towards the debate/challenge then get what is easy from the guidance. Then those who did not find it, abstain three days in the debate and seven when you return. Those are ten as being complete. That is for those who had no members/family participate in the restricted/sanctioned acts of compliance/submission. And be aware of The God and know for The God is severe in the retribution. (2:196)

[mquran]

Salaamun alaikum Idris,

Please take your time in responding. I myself do not have that much time but I do benefit immensely from our discussions.

I take your point about hajj and I'll have to think about it for a while. An immediate response which popped into my mind is that you translate 'hajj' as 'argument' whereas there is another word for 'argue' which is 'tujaddil' like 16/125.

To me, 2/183-207 is a preparation towards the establishment of the house of Allah (al-bait), which is Allah's domain on this earth as actualised by Ibrahim in 2/122-152.

I've not made my thoughts coherent at this point, even to myself by writing them down, but I'll try to break down my analysis of 2/196 for you:

fa-in ohsirtum fama istaysara minaalhadyi  : If you are prevented from completing the hajj or umra, then send forth what is easy for you from that which will direct you towards that goal.

tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu : and don't expel this from your mind until that which will direct you towards that goal reaches the place where it will effective.

faman kana minkum mareedanaw bihi athan min ra/sihi fafidyatun min siyaminaw sadaqatin aw nusukin : and whoever among you is ill or suffers a psychological problem, he should compensate by fasting or giving charity or sacrifice.

fa-itha amintum famantamattaAAa bialAAumrati ila alhajji  : and when ur secure again, complete with the umra (cultivation) towards al-hajj.

To me , 3/95-98 shows the establishing of the house via Ibrahim.

hope i've been of service and hope you will continue when u can.

[Idris]

peace be upon you mq,

Salaamun alaikum Idris,

Please take your time in responding. I myself do not have that much time but I do benefit immensely from our discussions.

sure thing

I take your point about hajj and I'll have to think about it for a while. An immediate response which popped into my mind is that you translate 'hajj' as 'argument' whereas there is another word for 'argue' which is 'tujaddil' like 16/125.

I translate hajj as "debate" while i agree that jaddil is argument, jaddil is more like baseless arguing, or argument for the sake of argument as many of the disbelievers do, while hajj is "debate" which is based on reason, intellect, logic, etc. if you check all the usages of the word hajj in the reading it clearly means debate, and baseless argument is clearly diffrentiated with debate in 2:197

To me, 2/183-207 is a preparation towards the establishment of the house of Allah (al-bait), which is Allah's domain on this earth as actualised by Ibrahim in 2/122-152.

I've not made my thoughts coherent at this point, even to myself by writing them down, but I'll try to break down my analysis of 2/196 for you:

fa-in ohsirtum fama istaysara minaalhadyi  : If you are prevented from completing the hajj or umra, then send forth what is easy for you from that which will direct you towards that goal.

tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu : and don't expel this from your mind until that which will direct you towards that goal reaches the place where it will effective.

faman kana minkum mareedanaw bihi athan min ra/sihi fafidyatun min siyaminaw sadaqatin aw nusukin : and whoever among you is ill or suffers a psychological problem, he should compensate by fasting or giving charity or sacrifice.

fa-itha amintum famantamattaAAa bialAAumrati ila alhajji  : and when ur secure again, complete with the umra (cultivation) towards al-hajj.

To me , 3/95-98 shows the establishing of the house via Ibrahim.

hope i've been of service and hope you will continue when u can.

i'll take into account your view, but if I get time I'll fully explain my view  of 2:183-203

thanx

[mquran]

Salaamun alaikum,

I translate hajj as "debate" while i agree that jaddil is argument, jaddil is more like baseless arguing, or argument for the sake of argument as many of the disbelievers do, while hajj is "debate" which is based on reason, intellect, logic, etc. if you check all the usages of the word hajj in the reading it clearly means debate, and baseless argument is clearly diffrentiated with debate in 2:197

Man, 16/125 uses 'jaadilum billati hiyaa ahsaan' (argue them with that which is more beautiful/better', so i dont think i can agree with your categorisation there. Having said, 'hujjah' in Arabic refers to 'proof or argument', so I dunno, you might be right too.

i'll take into account your view, but if I get time I'll fully explain my view of 2:183-203

Yes please, looking forward to it.

[hlatif]

I am wondering why it would be wrong to understand the statement as is:

"And when you finish the HAJJ (pilgrimage) or Umra (little pilgrimage) you wait until you have given the gift (Hadiy) before you shave your heads as a sign that the Hajj has ended.  If you did not have enough money to offer the gift then you do what you can or give Sadaka or by fasting.  And if you have a disease in your head (meaning scalp) that you cannot shave your head then do something else."

To me this is the clearest way to understand the Aya.  It deals with specific orders relating to the end of the Pilgrimage.  If we believe that the Qur'an is easy to understand and clear then this is the easiest way to understand this Ayah.

Hussein[/quote]

[Wakas]

peace hlatif,

You may be interested in the following thread:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2340


Wakas