News:

About us: a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran

Main Menu

WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...

Started by Dhulqarnain, June 16, 2004, 01:36:54 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Wakas

Peace Bro Ayman,

God could take it away. I'm not 100% sure what you mean though.


Also, I should clarify my previous statement, I meant:
iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. not SJD, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Quote from: Wakas on October 09, 2010, 08:27:33 AMGod could take it away. I'm not 100% sure what you mean though.

Since "mlk/control" is given by the god and could be taken away, then the "controlling forces" are not a certain specie but it is a status that the god gives and could take away.

قُلِ اللَّهُمَّ مَالِكَ الْمُلْكِ تُؤْتِي الْمُلْكَ مَن تَشَاء وَتَنزِعُ الْمُلْكَ مِمَّن تَشَاء وَتُعِزُّ مَن تَشَاء وَتُذِلُّ مَن تَشَاء بِيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ إِنَّكَ عَلَىَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ


So like all "controlling forces", Iblis was given control. However, when he disobeyed, it was taken away from him. He was always a "jinn", before and after control was taken away from him. If any "controlling force" disobeys the god then he would cease to be a "controlling force".

Quote from: Wakas on October 09, 2010, 08:27:33 AMAlso, I should clarify my previous statement, I meant:
iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. not SJD, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded.

This would contradict the fact that all humans and "jinn" were designed to serve the god:

وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ


Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
English: [url="http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html"]http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html[/url]

Noon de Plume

Peace,

Quote from: Wakas on October 04, 2010, 07:11:48 PM
I cant recall how this thread turned out, but my current view is:

iblees (~ego) is a malaika (controlling force) that is jinn/hidden.

iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. disobey, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded.

It's contradiction to be programmed or hardwired to disobey the program.

Circular deadlock: IF command = obey THEN command = disobey

Wakas

Peace Bro Ayman,

Can you clarify where you get these statements from:

QuoteHowever, when he disobeyed, it was taken away from him.

QuoteIf any "controlling force" disobeys the god then he would cease to be a "controlling force".




QuoteThis would contradict the fact that all humans and "jinn" were designed to serve the god:

They should serve God, whether they do or not is a different matter, but as I said, "iblees" was designed not to SJD, thus did exactly as designed to do.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Wakas

Peace Noon,

Quote from: Noon de Plume on October 09, 2010, 03:12:05 PM
Circular deadlock: IF command = obey THEN command = disobey

Hence my later clarification, i.e. "iblees" was designed not to SJD (mankind).
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Noon de Plume

Peace Wakas,

Quote from: Wakas on October 09, 2010, 03:16:19 PM
Hence my later clarification, i.e. "iblees" was designed not to SJD (mankind).

That's the contradiction; God's command was clearly given to submit and cannot assume opposite was programmed.

The logical conclusion is that iblees like humans was given autonomy or choice to agree/disagree with the command.

Wakas

Peace Noon,

I fail to see the contradiction:

We said to the malaika: SJD to/for adam/mankind, but iblees did not SJD.

The above strongly implies iblees was of the malaika, but as we know, malaika do as ordered. So how do we resolve this contradiction? This was discussed in this thread.


IF iblees was designed not to SJD to/for mankind, where is the contradiction?

If Canon design a voice-activated printer, which always does as requested, then its engineer says to it: "laminate a document" and it does not laminate, where is the contradiction? To me, it needs clarified. It would only be a contradiction if it was said to it: "print a document" and it did not print.

To determine whether it is a contradiction or not we have to know what it was designed to do.

I just realised, in AQ it seems to suggest specific malaika for specific tasks, they have a remit, they have control over a certain thing, which would also make sense with the above.


If a better answer can be given, I am all ears.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Mazhar

Salam Wakas,

This may also be considered



[7:16]
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Noon de Plume

Peace Wakas,

Quote from: Wakas on October 09, 2010, 05:30:05 PM
I fail to see the contradiction:

We said to the malaika: SJD to/for adam/mankind, but iblees did not SJD.

The above strongly implies iblees was of the malaika, but as we know, malaika do as ordered. So how do we resolve this contradiction? This was discussed in this thread.


IF iblees was designed not to SJD to/for mankind, where is the contradiction?

If Canon design a voice-activated printer, which always does as requested, then its engineer says to it: "laminate a document" and it does not laminate, where is the contradiction? To me, it needs clarified. It would only be a contradiction if it was said to it: "print a document" and it did not print.

To determine whether it is a contradiction or not we have to know what it was designed to do.

I just realised, in AQ it seems to suggest specific malaika for specific tasks, they have a remit, they have control over a certain thing, which would also make sense with the above.


If a better answer can be given, I am all ears.


7:12
said "What prevented you that not you prostrate tasjuda when I commanded you?"
said "I am better than him. You created me from fire and You created him from clay."

That is disobedience of a direct command thus designed with autonomy to agree/disagree.

Wakas

Peace Noon,

Do you regard iblees as a malaika? Yes/No.

I am aware of 7:12, it is subtle, and is obviously a rhetorical question.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]