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WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...

Started by Dhulqarnain, June 16, 2004, 01:36:54 AM

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Dhulqarnain

SALAAMUN TO ALL

25:33 And they shall not bring to you any question/argument, but We have brought to you the truth and best the explanation.

75.19 Again on Us is the explaining of it.

I like to start out with these two ayats, just to put into people's mind that, Al-Qur'an, is not a book on Philosophical Relativism, that is, it decides the questions/arguements which are brought to it.


I've been debating with some people here on the question, is Iblis an angel?  Allah says that, no question/arguement can be brought that Al-Qur'an explain it with the best explanation.

Their assertion is that, based on ayat 2:34, where Allah commands the angels to bow down and because Iblis did not, thereby, makes Iblis an angel.  For them this is Allah calling Iblis an angel rather than an allusion to his being an angel.

One comment is as follows:

Quote***I just showed you, all the ayats are from the quran...iblis was called an angel and was a jinn...iblis rebelled and thus lost his right to be called an angel and remained a jinn.***

Here, the individual, insists upon asserting that Iblis was called an angel, yet, posted no ayat where, Allah, calls him an angel.  However, in the following ayat, Allah, does call Iblis a JINN.  

18.50 And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the JINN, so he rebelled against his Lord's. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

In the following ayat, Allah, tells us the nature of the JINN and, states that, He created them of fire

15.27 And the JINN We created before, of intensely hot fire.

In the following ayat, Allah, tells us that, Iblis, once again, was created from fire.

38.76 He said: I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, and him Thou didst create of dust.

Now, no ayat, repeat, no ayat, tell us the nature of the angels, none.  Allah, never calls Iblis an angel nor does He state, anywhere, that the angels were created of a fire of a scorching wind, as some indviduals assert.

Now consider the following ayats.

16.49 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.

16.50 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.

Now, Allah, cannot be talking about the JINN and men here, because they both have, at times, refused to carry out Allah's command.  So, what creatures then, always carry out Allah's commands?---the non-human creatures and the angels.  Clearly, Iblis, cannot be an angel, because he refused to carry out Allah's command to bow.  Now, to continue to suggest or stand by 2:34, as saying that Iblis is one of the angels and that he refused to follow Allah's command and bow down, is to then set up a contradiction between 2:34 and 16: 50.  Al-Qur'an cannot contradict itself, hence, once again, the evidence is against the notion that Iblis was an angel.

If Allah didn't ask the JINN to bow directly, then what does that tell us? yeah, the JINN, Iblis included, KNEW that the command also extended to THEM.  Given the amount of Qur'anic facts about the JINN and angels, no other explanation makes sense.  

For anyone to assert that Iblis was an angel, hence, the the angels were created of fire as well or that Iblis was an angel and then became a JINN, as one individual continues to assert, when he refused to bow, contradicts the ayat which states he was created from fire from the beginning and, not that he became a being of fire because he rebelled.  

These individuals and those of like mind, at best, can only offer allusion/conjecture/extrapolation for evidence [which, in fact, is not convincing proof], but no Qur'anic evidence.  The ayats which I posted, clearly and unmistakenly tell us what Iblis was called by Allah...a JINN.

Idris

peace,

nice post, here's what I said to Nadia

Quotepeace,

Quote from: "savage_carrot"Salam Idris

If anyone bothered reading my posts, then they could see that's exactly what i said.

where is your proof that jinn and malaika are the same creatures? until you can prove so then I'd have to go with dhul that the command was given not only to malaika but to jinn as well, the malaikas according to 16:50 do what they are commanded, considering satan was among the jinn, then the logical conclusion is that the jinn do not = the malaika, it goes like this, God says the malaikas do what they are commanded, God does not lie, Iblis or Shaytan is called a jinn and disobeyed God's command, the logical conclusion, Shaytan is not a malaika, and jinn are not malaikas, the command was thereby given to all nonhumans, since God did not direct the command to any certain group of creatures (i.e. malaikas) then the jinn knew that that command extended to them as well

satan=jinn
malaika do not = jinn
satan does not = malaika

peace
Workers and their families may starve to death in the New World Order of economic rationality, but diamond necklaces are cheaper in elegant New York shops, thanks to the miracle of the market.
-Noam Chomsky

Mystic

and according to Quranist
Gibraeel(a.s) and Michaeel(a.s) do not = malaika

Idris

peace,

Quote from: "Mystic"and according to Quranist
Gibraeel(a.s) and Michaeel(a.s) do not = malaika

I'll ignore your first comment in good faith, if you can bring me a verse from the Reading that gives Jibril and Michael the title of malaika. I'll gladly change my position on that, until then.....

God bless
Workers and their families may starve to death in the New World Order of economic rationality, but diamond necklaces are cheaper in elegant New York shops, thanks to the miracle of the market.
-Noam Chomsky

Dhulqarnain

Salaamun Idris

Thank you.  Yes, I read your post and I quoted some of it to her with the hope that she will get it.  I think she does, but she doesn't like acquiesing to me.  She's a good padawan, I just hope she doesn't go Darth Vader on me.  :lol:

Danish

Peace,

As per my understanding relevant to several clear cut and reflecting verses, Iblis was no doubt a "shaytaan", hence a Jinn. Angels can never become shaytaans for they DO NOT HAVE A FREE WILL; they are special creatures who carry out GOD's commands in absoluteness.

Dhul, way to go brother, as always. :)

All praise and glory is due to Allah.

truth

Peace,

The Jinn have been determined by some of you to represent a form of human. Was Iblis then a humanoid (ie. Jinn).

Things are not truly gelling.

Peace


"the Knower of the Unseen, and He reveals unto none His secret,
Save unto a messenger whom He has chosen, and He made an affirmer before him and another follow him.

Dhulqarnain

Salaamun Danish

Good to see you.  :)

Hopefully, Nadia, will listen to you, insha-Allah.

She's really smart and a good debater, but too much ego and not enough accurate info.

Are things well with you?

adik_awang

Salam All,

I guess I can understand the confusion surrounding this issue. Lets look at the two verses again wherein God commanded the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam.

Quran 2:34 --
When We ordered the angels: "Prostrate before Adam", they all prostrated except Iblees who refused in his arrogance and became a disbeliever.

Quran 18:50 --
When We  said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam", all prostrated themselves except Iblees, who was one of the Jinns and chose to disobey the command of his Rabb.

Now, if we were to look at 2:34 in isolation, we might easily conclude (rather wrongly) that Iblees was one of the angels. But if we were to scrutinise the same incident which was reported again in 18:50, we would be made aware of the missing bit of information that was not given in 2:34, i.e., that Iblees was one of the Jinns.

Putting the two verses together, and bearing in mind that God cannot contradict Himself, we can but only conclude that when God was addressing the MAIN AUDIENCE (the angels) to prostrate themselves before Adam, Iblees must also (for reasons unknown to us) had been a witness to and a member of that audience. Whilst the angels prostrated; Iblees refused to do so.

Lets imagine this scenario. We have a class full of boys and one girl. The girl's name is Liz. The teacher comes into class and requests everyone to submit in the previous day's assignment. Everyone did except Liz.

Now, we could very well have reported the above scenario in this manner: "All the boys submitted their assignments except Liz". If a person had not properly obtained all relevant information pertaining to the above scenario, he/she could easily have mistaken Liz for one of the boys based on that simple report alone.

I hope this makes sense.

Salam/Peace

Dhulqarnain

Salaamun Nadia

You have two HUGE contradictions to resolve.

CONTRADICTION #1.

The following are your quotes, to wit:

THIS--***Therefore, iblis was an angel...and of the jinn...jinn are made from scorchless fire, we know that iblis was made of scorchless fire, since we know iblis was an angel, he was made of scorchless fire, therefore angels are made out of scorchless fire. Not an unknown afterall...***

CONTRADICTS THIS ---***And that might be also why, we are not given the makeup[nature] of angels seperately ***
You cannot assert that something is known and then assert that it isn't.

CONTRADICTION #2

Then how do you reconcile the contradiction you've set up between 2:34 and 16:50, to wit:

16.49 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.

16.50 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.

Now, Allah, cannot be talking about the JINN and men here, because they both have, at times, refused to carry out Allah's command.  So, what creatures then, always carry out Allah's commands?---the non-human creatures and the angels.  Clearly, Iblis, cannot be an angel, because he refused to carry out Allah's command to bow.  Now, to continue to suggest or stand by 2:34, as saying that Iblis is one of the angels and that he refused to follow Allah's command and bow down, is to then set up a contradiction between 2:34 and 16: 50.  Al-Qur'an cannot contradict itself, hence, once again, the evidence is against the notion that Iblis was an angel.

You continue to struggle with the difference between allusion and the concrete/direct.  Ayat 2:34 alludes to Iblis being angel, however, ayats 18:50 [Allah, calls Iblis a Jinn, and nowhere calls him an angel.] 16:50 [the angels do as commanded, clearly, Iblis, refused to do as commanded and never reversed his position.] concretely/directly/clearly rules him out as such.  

Resolve the above contradiction which you've set up, thanks.