Author Topic: 3 salawaat  (Read 12217 times)

ayman

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« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2004, 05:18:27 AM »
Peace brother Layth,

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I stated that this was ?my? understanding based on a sequential walkthrough the Quranic history.

Here are some facts I can ascertain:

- The prophet and his companions were at one point being ?blocked? from the Restricted Temple (22:25)
- Rome would be fought twice and defeated on the 2nd time (30:2-5)
- The 2nd battle with Rome would take place at or around the area of the Dead Sea ? lowest point (30:3)
- The Restricted Temple was re-taken by an army of the prophet (48:27)

All this and more can be pieced together from various verses if studied as one story.


OK brother. Now nothing in what you said here is related to the change of "qibla". So do you now see that the clear reason for the change was given in 2:143 and that the reason that you gave is invalid and hence retract this earlier statement of yours:

"God changes the Qibla since Jerusalem is off limits (due to Roman presence)."

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Qibla = Focal Point.

It is to me an orientation that people would follow (both physically and spiritually).


Please explain how people would follow the orientation of a Temple or any stone building spiritually.

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In 10:87 Moses was given leave with his people to divert from the central system that would be gained from following the original Qibla, due to the fact that they were on the run and being pursued by Pharaoh.


What "central system" can be gained from imagining to be physically pointing one's face to any stone building?

Moreover, if "qibla" had been a physical direction for "salat" as you say, then, because houses/"biyut" is plural, 10:87 would be telling Moses to point their faces in random directions.

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How and what this deviation was is not a subject I have studied.


Brother, I suggest that you study it before making any strong conclusions about "qibla" as you are doing here.

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According to 2:144, I will always hold my Qibla to be the Restricted Temple. As for pilgrimage, exemption is given if you are ?unable? to attend (3:96-97)


So what is this Restricted Temple? Is it the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem? Or is it just the Rock?

Moreover, how did you come to the conclusion that "masjid" means Temple? Is there any evidence that "pre-quranic" Arab Jews or Pagans called their temples "masajid"? I haven't seen "temple" as a dictionary meaning, so is this a dictionary meaning? If not a dictionary meaning, then how did you reach it based on the great reading when we are clearly told that "al-masjid al-haram" IS THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD in 2:144 and 2:149. How do you turn your physical direction towards the target of THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD?

By the same token, do you interpret the "straight path" as a highway leading to Jerusalem? Why or why not?

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I have the option to ?chose? between treating it as a name, or a meaning to that name. I do not see what being ?rusty? has to do with this choice?


Brother, this is so unlike you. You are the one who used to say that we should follow the most logical understanding. "Because I choose to" is not a logical argument and it is certainly a type of argument that I have never heard from you before.

Please logically explain the reason why you made that choice despite the fact that the clear Arabic dictionary meaning of the common noun "makkat" perfectly fits in the context of 48:24.

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I have stated many times what Qibla means. I also have stated above my understanding of 10:87. As for 2:144, I am not aware of Jews or Christians taking Jerusalem as their focal point, even in Salat (if you can call what they do Salat).


You have been misinformed. Facing Jerusalem during prayers is a Jewish tradition even today, as clear here:

1 Kings 8:44
"When Your people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatever way You shall send them, and they pray to the Lord toward the city which You have chosen and the house which I have built for Your name"


The Jewish Talmud also has references to facing Jerusalem.

Tosefta Brachot 3:16
"Those in the north face the south, those in the south face the north, those in the east face the west and those in the west face the east so that all Israel prays toward one place"


Archaeological evidence confirms that synagogues from the "pre-quranic" and "post-quranic" era were roughly oriented to face Jerusalem. I am surprised that you, the one who always had interest in physical archeological evidence, do not know this. Please see, for example: Avi-Yonah, M., Synagogue Architecture. In Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 15, New York: Macmillan, 1971.

As you can see, what you are suggesting for us to do is in fact nothing more than a Talmudic tradition.

Moreover, evaluating this evidence in light of 2:145 completely negates your argument for facing Jerusalem. Or are the Jews not amongst the people of the book as mentioned in 2:145?

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Salat is decreed for the believers at specific/fixed times. Thus, wherever you may be, you will face the Qibla only when it is time to do so (hence wherever and whenever are not the same). I am not performing Salat as I write this post, thus I am not in need to face the Qibla?


So now you are saying that verses 2:142-150 apply only to "salat". We see the clear reference to a prayer direction in the Bible but not in the great reading. Can you please show me where it says that "qibla" is only related to "salat" or even where "salat" is mentioned in 2:142-150?

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However, when it is time, then even from the location I am in, I will face the Restricted Temple.


How do you face this Temple in Jerusalem? Or, more accurately, since in all likelihood it is below the horizon, how do you imagine to be facing it? Do you use the great circle method or do you use another method?

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

Layth

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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2004, 05:30:32 AM »
Peace,

Just finished going through a series of uses for "duluk".

One of the uses shows up as "the passing of time/wisdom from age"

If applied to 17:78, this would make the translation of :

"You shall hold the Salat after a time from the setting of the sun until the pitch darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Wakas

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« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2004, 10:51:29 AM »
peace Layth,

Thank you for clarifying your response to my point 1. Given that al quran seems to give an example of a missed regular/timed slw, I can see where you get the idea that the middle slw needs to be specifically mentioned as its the most likely to be missed, but I dont see that as a solid point. To me, one could just as easily sleep in and miss the regular/timed slw of Fajr.

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You are saying that 2:238 establishes only ?middle? (wusta) as the subject matter for which 2:239 is speaking.


I never said that. I implied it could be either hence the uncertainty of your view.

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This is defined by both the term ?end/edge of the day? and by the word ?Fajr?. In Arabic, once the sun comes-up, then you are not able to call such a time ?Fajr? (I believe the same applies to the English word ?Dawn?).


When you say "comes-up" do you mean past the horizon OR comes-up fully past the horizon? I think you are implying the former. Please clarify.

I'm still confused about your wusta and isha timing BUT then you gave another trans. of 17:78, shown below:

"You shall hold the Salat after a time from the setting of the sun until the pitch darkness of the night..."

Where are you getting "after a time" from? I assume this is to allow you enough time to separate the two, i.e. wusta and isha, "after" being the key word. That is not what the sign says.

-------

This is what Lane says about zlf and its plural. I would appreciate an analysis by those more learned than me in Arabic.

http://www.geocities.com/learnislamquran/zlf_plural.jpg


Wakas
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Layth

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« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2004, 04:02:28 AM »
Peace Ayman,

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OK brother. Now nothing in what you said here is related to the change of "qibla". So do you now see that the clear reason for the change was given in 2:143 and that the reason that you gave is invalid and hence retract this earlier statement of yours:

"God changes the Qibla since Jerusalem is off limits (due to Roman presence)."


That 2:143 is the reason for the change in Qibla is undeniable. My comments in this discussion are provided in ?good faith?.
 
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Please explain how people would follow the orientation of a Temple or any stone building spiritually.


The same way that they would ?shift? from this focal point and follow another so as to be distinguished (2:143), the same way Moses?s people shifted the Qibla to be towards their homes (10:87).

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What "central system" can be gained from imagining to be physically pointing one's face to any stone building?


It provides a unity and constant reminder that the system is the same that was decreed by all the prophets. It is one focal point (both physically and spiritually).

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Moreover, if "qibla" had been a physical direction for "salat" as you say, then, because houses/"biyut" is plural, 10:87 would be telling Moses to point their faces in random directions.


Please read carefully 10:87 and see how the ?physical? Qibla is as clear as day?

Moses and his people have left their dwellings in Egypt and are on the run (being followed by Pharaoh and his army). The exodus is being done towards the direction of the sea (10:90). This makes the Qibla (Restricted Temple) ahead of them. God tells Moses and his people to make their ?homes? into the Qibla during the Salat (thus letting them face the direction that the danger is coming from, and not give their backs to this direction as would have normally been done if they faced the original Qibla).

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How and what this deviation was is not a subject I have studied.  

Brother, I suggest that you study it before making any strong conclusions about "qibla" as you are doing here.


Thanks to your questioning I have made a study of this and have found the most satisfying clarity.

As far as I am concerned, my holding a physical Qibla is a clear following of 2:144. You are the one assuming that the ?masjid alharam? is a non-physical place and thus have created a dilemma for yourself unless Qibla is also made into a non-physical command.

I see the reason you are saying what you are saying, but it is your premise and not mine which needs to be proven.
 
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So what is this Restricted Temple? Is it the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem? Or is it just the Rock?

Moreover, how did you come to the conclusion that "masjid" means Temple? Is there any evidence that "pre-quranic" Arab Jews or Pagans called their temples "masajid"? I haven't seen "temple" as a dictionary meaning, so is this a dictionary meaning? If not a dictionary meaning, then how did you reach it based on the great reading when we are clearly told that "al-masjid al-haram" IS THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD in 2:144 and 2:149. How do you turn your physical direction towards the target of THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD?


Masjid Al-Haram is a physical place which was maintained (9:19), where the idol worshippers were forbidden from entering/participating in (9:28), where fighting is discouraged (2:191), where the prophet and his companions entered with heads shaven (48:27) etc..

Again, I am not aware how you disregard/discard all this information and insist that the Restricted Temple is non-physical (and hence Qibla must also be non-physical).

As for 2:144, THE TRUTH (emphasis yours) is the shifting towards this Qibla and not the Restricted Temple itself.  

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By the same token, do you interpret the "straight path" as a highway leading to Jerusalem? Why or why not?


I will disregard this comment.

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Brother, this is so unlike you. You are the one who used to say that we should follow the most logical understanding. "Because I choose to" is not a logical argument and it is certainly a type of argument that I have never heard from you before.

Please logically explain the reason why you made that choice despite the fact that the clear Arabic dictionary meaning of the common noun "makkat" perfectly fits in the context of 48:24.


?Chose? does not mean I am being moody and selecting Mecca as a name. I am saying that the ?choice? I have available is to look at the word as a proper name (which is what I have done) or to look at it as a verb (which is what you have done).

I ?chose? the name option because it also fit with the meaning of 48:24.

?And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.? (48:24)

Mecca here being the same Mecca that is in existence today (similarly the word Bakka was kept and is linked to the Bakka of Jerusalem).

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You have been misinformed. Facing Jerusalem during prayers is a Jewish tradition even today, as clear here:

1 Kings 8:44
"When Your people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatever way You shall send them, and they pray to the Lord toward the city which You have chosen and the house which I have built for Your name"

The Jewish Talmud also has references to facing Jerusalem.

Tosefta Brachot 3:16
"Those in the north face the south, those in the south face the north, those in the east face the west and those in the west face the east so that all Israel prays toward one place"

Archaeological evidence confirms that synagogues from the "pre-quranic" and "post-quranic" era were roughly oriented to face Jerusalem. I am surprised that you, the one who always had interest in physical archeological evidence, do not know this. Please see, for example: Avi-Yonah, M., Synagogue Architecture. In Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 15, New York: Macmillan, 1971.

As you can see, what you are suggesting for us to do is in fact nothing more than a Talmudic tradition.

Moreover, evaluating this evidence in light of 2:145 completely negates your argument for facing Jerusalem. Or are the Jews not amongst the people of the book as mentioned in 2:145?


Thank you for sharing this information, but you also forgot some Old Testament references

"Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime." (Daniel 6:10)

Your argument using 2:145 does not stand to scrutiny simply because you neglected the fact that the Qibla we are talking about and which we are commanded to face is the ?Restricted Temple? and not ?the area of Jerusalem? as you have implied.

Do the Jews accept the Restricted Temple as their Qibla?

Do the Christians?

In-fact, based on the analysis that the Restricted Temple is in the area known as the ?Temple Mount? (where the Dome of the Rock exists), you will find that neither Jews nor Christians accept this as their orientation.

In-fact, the Jews are ?forbidden? from that area by their Rabbis, while the Christians seek the mount of olives as their rallying point where they believe Jesus last prayed.

Does this sound like people following the same Qibla?

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So now you are saying that verses 2:142-150 apply only to "salat". We see the clear reference to a prayer direction in the Bible but not in the great reading. Can you please show me where it says that "qibla" is only related to "salat" or even where "salat" is mentioned in 2:142-150?


Isn?t this what this whole back and forth discussion has been about?

Salat and Qibla are connected from the usage of 10:87.

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How do you face this Temple in Jerusalem? Or, more accurately, since in all likelihood it is below the horizon, how do you imagine to be facing it? Do you use the great circle method or do you use another method?


I think you are getting stuck in the details and missing the overall picture:

?And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable. ? (2:142)
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Layth

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« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2004, 04:07:37 AM »
Peace Wakas,

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Thank you for clarifying your response to my point 1. Given that al quran seems to give an example of a missed regular/timed slw, I can see where you get the idea that the middle slw needs to be specifically mentioned as its the most likely to be missed, but I dont see that as a solid point. To me, one could just as easily sleep in and miss the regular/timed slw of Fajr.


You are correct, but for some reason I only found this time to be one in which an example of missing it was given. Perhaps when compared, this has the highest probability to be missed.

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Quote:
This is defined by both the term ?end/edge of the day? and by the word ?Fajr?. In Arabic, once the sun comes-up, then you are not able to call such a time ?Fajr? (I believe the same applies to the English word ?Dawn?).  

When you say "comes-up" do you mean past the horizon OR comes-up fully past the horizon? I think you are implying the former. Please clarify.


Comes up past the horizon.

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I'm still confused about your wusta and isha timing BUT then you gave another trans. of 17:78, shown below:

"You shall hold the Salat after a time from the setting of the sun until the pitch darkness of the night..."

Where are you getting "after a time" from? I assume this is to allow you enough time to separate the two, i.e. wusta and isha, "after" being the key word. That is not what the sign says.


I looked up the various meanings of ?Duluk? last night and this appeared as one of them.

Here is how the process of analyzing 17:78 went:

"You shall hold the Salat at the ?dhulook?  of the sun until the ?ghasaq? of the night..."

If ?dhulook? is chosen to mean ?decline/rub? and ?Ghasaq? is chosen to mean ?dark/pitch/black? then a Salat time has been created which lasts for 1.5 hours (this is how long it took to get from beginning sunset to pitch dark as per my measure).

Thus, the choice of ?setting/rubbing? AND ?darkness of night? creates a problem no matter how many Salats you believe are held per day (even if you believe there are only two, then you have one for 15 minutes and the other lasting for 1.5 hours).

Therefore there was a problem. Either ?Dhulook? was wrong or ?Ghasaq? was wrong.

If the meaning of ?dhulook? was taken to be the ?rubbing? of the sun (i.e sunset/dusk) and ?ghasaq? was ?darkness of night?, then there is also the contradiction created with 38:31 where the Salat ends with the sun disappearing completely and not until the darkness of the night.

Thus, after examining ?dhulook?, a dictionary meaning I found was ?the passage of time? which made some sense in light of the problems raised above.

The only alternative is that ?ghasaq? is the problem and its meaning is not ?darkness? but is ?twilight? (i.e. the time of the day which mixes with the night). This would then make 17:78 be about the ?middle? and not the ?isha? Salat time.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Wakas

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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2004, 08:27:27 AM »
peace Layth,

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Perhaps when compared, this has the highest probability to be missed.


Possibly, but subjective.

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Thus, the choice of ?setting/rubbing? AND ?darkness of night? creates a problem no matter how many Salats you believe are held per day (even if you believe there are only two, then you have one for 15 minutes and the other lasting for 1.5 hours).


I dont see why they have to have similar time-ranges.

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then there is also the contradiction created with 38:31 where the Salat ends with the sun disappearing completely and not until the darkness of the night.


Before I comment on that, I want to get the most accurate trans. of 38:31-33.

Ith (when) AAurida (they were shown/displayed) AAalayhi (to him) bi (in) al (the) AAashiyyi (evening/dusk) al (the) ssaffinatu (still-standing horses) al (the) jiyadu (long-necked and beautiful).

I have seen significantly different translations of 38:32. Some say he didn't neglect his remembrance/mentioning (see M. Asad for example) and some say it was the horses who became hidden or disappeared. 38:33 states "bring/return them back" thus implying it was the horses that disappeared or became hidden in the barrier/veil (of night). This makes sense also but alas, I cannot scrutinise this verse in the detail I would like because of my lack of grammatical knowledge. This is what I have so far:

hatta (till) tawarat* (concealed/hidden) bi (in) al (the) hijabi (veil/barrier)

*it (the sun or materialism) or they (horses)? Different translators interpret it differently.
 

Wakas
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ayman

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« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2004, 02:10:45 AM »
Peace dear brother Layth,

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That 2:143 is the reason for the change in Qibla is undeniable. My comments in this discussion are provided in ?good faith?.


Good, now this is more like the old you. So now with this proper focus let's stop speculating about the political situation 1400 years ago and read 2:143 together and find out the undeniable reason for the change:

2:143. Like this we made you a balanced nation, so that you will be witnesses over the people and the messenger will be on you a witness. And we didn't allow the target that you were on except to known who follows the messenger from who rolls back on his heels and it (i.e., the previous target) was big/important except for those who The God guided and The God would not waste your faith, indeed The God is compassionate and merciful to people.

Please notice that "kanat lakabirat" in 2:143 is feminine and hence it must be referring to the previous target ("al-qiblat alati kuntu 3layha"). So the sign is saying that the PREVIOUS TARGET is a big deal EXCEPT for those who The God guided. Do you agree? If so, let's continue together.

What was the previous target?

It was the existing target of the previous people of the book (the Jews). The target of the Jews was physical and it was the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This can be deduced by asking Jews themselves, from the Talmud, and from the fact that the all-important target of Jews is to rebuild their Temple on THE TEMPLE MOUNT. In fact, the Temple Mount was named the Temple Mount for no reason other than that it is the location of the Jewish Temple, which they take as their "qibla". Since their Temple building was destroyed in 70AD, their physical target simply became the Temple Mount.

Thus, in summary, the previous target was a physical target and it was the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This is EXACTLY the same physical target that you now want us to face.

Now we are told in no uncertain terms that this previous target (i.e. the Temple Mount in Jerusalem) is a big deal (i.e., it is important) EXCEPT for those who The God guided. Now, I hope that you can understand why I see the Temple Mount as insignificant and I will never see it as important.

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The same way that they would ?shift? from this focal point and follow another so as to be distinguished (2:143), the same way Moses?s people shifted the Qibla to be towards their homes (10:87).


You said it yourself: the "shift" from this target/focal point to another was done to distinguish people. So the next question is "distinguish what?"

Its purpose is to distinguish those who follow the messenger from those who roll back on their heels. Now let's put this to the test. Let's say you have a neighbor who happens to be a strict Talmudic Jew. You both decide to build your own Temples next to your homes. Naturally, the Talmudic Jew builds his Jewish Temple following Talmudic traditions and hence builds it such that the niche is supposed to be facing the Temple Mount. You build your Temple and as per your article, you orient the niche so that it is supposed to face the Temple Mount. Now, unless you have distinct non-Jewish decorations or a sign outside the Temple warning Talmudic Jews that this is not a Talmudic Temple, some Talmudic Jews will mistake your Temple for theirs. This is for the simple reason that your "qiblat" is EXACTLY the same as theirs. So how did your "qiblat" distinguish those who follow the messenger from those who roll back on their heels? Clearly it didn't.

Let's add another element to the above scenario. Let's say that you live South of the town presently called Makkat. Now, your physical direction is EXACTLY the same as that of the Wahabis. In fact, you might as well buy one of their existing Mosques and convert it to a Temple (whatever that means) instead of going through the expense of building your own Temple.

How does your "qiblat" distinguish you from a Talmudic Jew or even from a Wahabi (if you are south of the town presently called Makkat)? Clearly, it doesn't.

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It provides a unity and constant reminder that the system is the same that was decreed by all the prophets. It is one focal point (both physically and spiritually).


I totally agree that "qiblat" provides unity and is a constant reminder of the system that was decreed by all prophets.

The "qiblat" of Talmudic Jews is EXACTLY the same "qiblat" that you are proposing. So if we follow your proposed "qiblat" then we would indeed be united with them in manifest error.

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Please read carefully 10:87 and see how the ?physical? Qibla is as clear as day?

Moses and his people have left their dwellings in Egypt and are on the run (being followed by Pharaoh and his army). The exodus is being done towards the direction of the sea (10:90). This makes the Qibla (Restricted Temple) ahead of them. God tells Moses and his people to make their ?homes? into the Qibla during the Salat (thus letting them face the direction that the danger is coming from, and not give their backs to this direction as would have normally been done if they faced the original Qibla).


Thank you for the good advice brother. I took your advice and carefully read not only 10:87 as you suggested but also the whole context from 10:75 to 10:93. Here is what becomes clear:

1. There is no indication that the command in 10:87 is after the exodus from Egypt. In fact, as you correctly pointed out, the exodus comes afterwards in 10:90. Hence, Moussa and his brother were still in Egypt when they made their houses a "qiblat".
2. The command doesn't say that one should take a "qiblat" during "salat" exclusively.
3. Since 10:87 talks about "biyut", which means houses, then the "qiblat"/target/destination in 10:87 is a physical one.
4. Since "biyut" is plural, this renders your understanding of "qiblat" as a specific physical direction invalid, because it would mean a random direction.
5. "Facing the direction of danger" would actually be the opposite of what The God ordered them to do, since he clearly ordered Moses to go in the opposite direction (leave Egypt).

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Thanks to your questioning I have made a study of this and have found the most satisfying clarity.


Brother, I am always glad to be of help. :)

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As far as I am concerned, my holding a physical Qibla is a clear following of 2:144. You are the one assuming that the ?masjid alharam? is a non-physical place and thus have created a dilemma for yourself unless Qibla is also made into a non-physical command.

I see the reason you are saying what you are saying, but it is your premise and not mine which needs to be proven.


Actually, your understanding creates a dilemma. If you interpret "qibla" as a physical direction, then 10:87 becomes meaningless because "biyut" is plural and hence the direction becomes random (i.e., no direction). Egypt is a big place and one house could be to the north while another could be to the south, etc.

My understanding is without any dilemmas because 2:144 and 10:87 are reconciled with simply the clear dictionary meaning of "target/destination", which is consistent and is exactly the same.

In 10:87 because "biyut" is physical, it is a physical "destination", in other words The God is telling Moses to setup houses for his people and make these houses a destination for them. This was the first step before the exodus, which comes shortly afterwards in 10:90. This is logical because when the command to leave Egypt will come shortly afterwards, you want to be prepared by having people gathered in known places and you wouldn't want to unintentionally leave people behind. Hence, you setup communal houses as a destination where people gather.

In 2:144, "al-masjid al-haram" is not about the wall and roof of a physical building. It is about the following purposes that are impossible to be accomplished by a physical building:

1. It is a criterion of determining those who The God guided. I am sure that hypocrites will have no qualms about pointing their faces to the Temple Mount or any place on earth if it serves their purposes. As we saw, Talmudic Jews routinely point their faces to the Temple Mount. The undisputable fact is that a physical building, no matter where it is located, cannot guide anyone or make it known who is guided and who is not.

2. It is the truth from our Lord. There is nothing inherently true or false about a building or any other physical building. It is the ideas that we have about an object or a concept that can be true or false.

3. Wherever we are (and not only during "salat") we should set up our direction towards "al-masjid al-haram".

4. Once a structure is under the horizon, it is physically impossible to be facing it. You are in TRUTH facing random regions in outer space. Moreover, because the earth is rotating, you are actually facing different regions in outer space every second of your "salat".

Hence, in 2:144 "qiblat"/target/destination is non-physical because a physical interpretation leads to nonsense in the same exact way that a physical interpretation of the straight path leads to nonsense (as you know very well).

Like in 2:144, in 10:105 and other places, we are asked to FACE "al-din".  

10:105. And that persist your FACE to the "deen"/obligation monotheistic and do not be from those who set up partners.

30:30. So persist your FACE to the "deen"/obligation monotheistic, The God's natural system that He originated people on, there is no substitute to The God's creation but most people do not know.

30:43. So persist your FACE to the worthy "deen"/obligation before a day made inevitable by The God comes. On that day they will be splintered.


Isn't "al-din" also described as "al-7aq"/THE TRUTH? Those commands and their similar wording is not unintentional, there is no difference between FACING "al-din" and FACING "al-masjid al-haram".

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Masjid Al-Haram is a physical place which was maintained (9:19), where the idol worshippers were forbidden from entering/participating in (9:28), where fighting is discouraged (2:191), where the prophet and his companions entered with heads shaven (48:27) etc..

Again, I am not aware how you disregard/discard all this information and insist that the Restricted Temple is non-physical (and hence Qibla must also be non-physical).


Patience brother, I don't disregard anything in the great reading. Let's try to think about the signs in those verses. I have no problem with understanding "al-bayt al-haram" as a physical building. However, as I demonstrated above and will demonstrate again, there are many logical problems that make it impossible to understand "al-masjid al-haram" as a physical building. Let me address your points one by one:

1. 9:19

As you indicated, 9:19 talks about maintaining or more accurately managing "al-masjid al-haram". In Egypt, there is Al-Masjid Al-Azhar. Sheikh Tantawi is the manager of Al-Azkar. Does this mean that he manages the walls and roof of the physical building ("bayt") of Al-Azhar? When we hear of Al-Azhar issuing a Fatwa, does this mean that the walls and the roof of the building of Al-Azhar issued the Fatwa? Clearly not! A "masjid" is not a physical building but is an institution of submission/obedience and this meaning survives even today, despite all the corruptions of sectarians. Hence, it is a system of authority, exactly like government. On the other hand, "al-bayt al-haram" can be the physical building of that institution.

2. 9:28

Again, as in the case of 9:19, if one understands "al-masjid al-haram" as an institution then there is no problem. For example, unless you are from the Saudi Royal family, you are not allowed to be a person with real authority (a minister) in the institution of Saudi government. In fact you will not even be allowed to come close to being a minister. However, you can probably walk into the physical building of the ministry of foreign affairs.

On the other hand, when we test your understanding of 9:28, it really doesn't make sense. For example, you and I consider ourselves to be from "alathina amanu" so the command in 9:28 is directed at us. Thus, it is our responsibility that those who have setup partners do not come near positions of authority in the institution that others like us turn to for the TRUTH. For example, you wouldn't let someone like PrinceZED even come near to being a moderator. However, I am sure that you would have no problem inviting him into the physical building of your "Temple" to hear The God's message. This is also consistent with "al-bayt al-haram" being for ALL people.

3. 2:191

The SAME expression used in 2:191 is used in 60:9 to talk about "din".

60:9. The God only forbids you from taking as protectors those who fought you in the obligation/"deen" and evicted you from your homes and they openly tried to evict you and whoever takes them as protectors, those are the unjust.

Is "din" a physical building because there can be fighting IN IT?

4. 48:27

The sign in 110:1-2 talks about the same victory in 48:27. The SAME expression used in 48:27 is used to talk about "din".

110:1-2. When The God's victory and the breakthrough come. And you saw the people enter The God's obligation in throngs.

Is "din" a physical building because people (heads shaven or otherwise) can ENTER IT?

What we notice is that the same EXACT terms (facing it, fighting in it, entering it) used for "al-masjid al-haram" are used for "din". It is not then surprising that both "din" and "al-masjid al-haram" are described as the TRUTH.

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As for 2:144, THE TRUTH (emphasis yours) is the shifting towards this Qibla and not the Restricted Temple itself.


What you are saying is that it refers to the shift (i.e. the general actions of 2:144 and not anything specific in them). Firstly, this is not a valid understanding because the same expression is repeated in 2:149 and 2:145-149 doesn't mention anything about the shift. Moreover, here are some verses where the same EXACT expression occurs:

In 2:26 does "inahu al-7aq" refer to the "mathal" or to generally what the verse is saying? Surely, the sign in the verse is generally saying the truth, like ALL the book does. However, clearly "inahu al-7aq" points our attention to a specific concept (the "mathal") that was mentioned previously.

In 11:17, "inahu al-7aq" refers specifically to the book and NOT to any general actions.

In 22:54, "inahu al-7aq" refers specifically to the book and NOT to any general actions.

28:52-53, "inahu al-7aq" refers specifically to the book and NOT to any general actions.

Please notice that 2:144 we hear that those who were given the book (not a compass and not a map) know that "al-masjid al-haram" is the truth. Hence, once again we see that "al-masjid al-haram" is simply the institution of authority that implements The God's truth in the book. Hence, if Al-Masjid Al-Azhar ever gives up Hadiths and implements the TRUTH in the book, it can be "al-masjid al-haram" who people turn to.

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?Chose? does not mean I am being moody and selecting Mecca as a name. I am saying that the ?choice? I have available is to look at the word as a proper name (which is what I have done) or to look at it as a verb (which is what you have done).


I didn't choose it as a verb. The word "makkat" can only be either a common noun or a proper name and it can never be a verb. Any word whose meaning makes sense in the context MUST be understood as a common noun. On the other hand, proper names are meaningless labels that don't reflect the truth about what is being described. Hence, you are not really a "lion" and Layth is just a label. However, if I say: "The "lyth" is the king of the jungle and he preys on weaker animals" then this is most likely a common noun.

The common NOUN meaning of "makkat" as  "destruction/wearing down/insistence on the adversary" fits perfectly in the context of 48:24.

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I ?chose? the name option because it also fit with the meaning of 48:24.

?And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.? (48:24)


But we can only choose to look at it as a proper name if the common noun doesn't fit well in the context. In this case, the common noun fits perfectly as demonstrated below:

48:24. And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction/wearing down/insistence on the adversary, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.

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Mecca here being the same Mecca that is in existence today (similarly the word Bakka was kept and is linked to the Bakka of Jerusalem).


It is an indisputable fact that "post-quranic" hypocrites were in the habit of naming things to match concepts in the great reading. For example, they named the building that they built themselves Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa long after the revelation of the great reading to match the common concept of "al-masjid al-aqsa" in the great reading. The other indisputable fact is that your ONLY source for the name Makkat is those same people.

You yourself know that what they named Kaabat in Makka is not the real "kaabat", otherwise you must then give up your whole Jerusalem idea and follow the Sunnis belief in Makka.

If you are still interested in archeological physical evidence, then research Nabataean idols and find out what the stone cube whose height is slightly more than the other dimensions represents. What you will find for yourself is that this stone cube represented the Nabataean idol Dhu-Al-Shaara (Dusares). You will also find out that the pagan ritual of spinning seven times around Dhu-Al-Shaara was done to celebrate his birth.

The "post-quranic" hypocrites simply renamed their idol from Dhu-Al-Shaara to Kaaba so that they can continue their pagan practices while pretending to follow the great reading. Why do you put it past them to rename an insignificant small town where a pagan shrine survived to Makkat?

As for Bakka, it is a proper name because the common noun doesn't make sense in the context. Hence, it can be understood as a meaningless label.

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Thank you for sharing this information, but you also forgot some Old Testament references

"Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime." (Daniel 6:10)

Your argument using 2:145 does not stand to scrutiny simply because you neglected the fact that the Qibla we are talking about and which we are commanded to face is the ?Restricted Temple? and not ?the area of Jerusalem? as you have implied.

Do the Jews accept the Restricted Temple as their Qibla?


Yes, the do. In fact the Jews do take the Temple Mount as their "qibla" EXACTLY like what you are proposing. Haven't you been following what is happening over the past few decades in Palestine? The extremist Talmudic Jews want to destroy the current sectarian structures on the Temple Mount and rebuild their Temple on it.

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Do the Christians?


The Christian's "qibla" is also physical. The "pre-quranic" Christians faced east for prayer. This was also the general pagan practice, especially of communities that idolized the sun. For more information, please see: Davies, J. G., Orientation. In: The New Westminster Dictionary of Liturgy and Worship, ed. J. G. Davies. Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1986.

This pagan custom together with assigning Sun-day as the holy day for Trinitarians may not be a coincidence. Emperor Constantine was known to be a pagan sun worshiper and would have influenced such decisions at the Nicene.

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In-fact, based on the analysis that the Restricted Temple is in the area known as the ?Temple Mount? (where the Dome of the Rock exists), you will find that neither Jews nor Christians accept this as their orientation.


You are wrong. Talmudic Jews do take the Temple Mount as their orientation. Exactly like Sunnis take what is presently called Makkat as their orientation.

Talmudic traditions also contend that one should avoid turning his back to the Temple; thus, the rabbis argued that someone, for example, to the south or north of Jerusalem should face east or west when relieving himself! [see: Babylonian Talmud, Brachot 61b].

Compare the above Talmudic rabbinical edict to the following Hadith:

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 388:
Narrated Ali bin Abdullah from Sufyan from Alzuhri from Ata bin Yazid from Abu Aiyub Al-Ansari: The Prophet said, "While defecating, neither face nor turn your back to the Qibla but face either east or west."

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In-fact, the Jews are ?forbidden? from that area by their Rabbis, while the Christians seek the mount of olives as their rallying point where they believe Jesus last prayed.


You are wrong because while the average Jew is forbidden from some of the areas of the Temple, the Rabbis are not. It is the same situation today in Makka where the average Muslim is not allowed to go inside the so-called Kaabat while the Saudi political and religious elite are allowed to. Perhaps they are afraid that people will find out that the only things inside Dhu Al-Shaara are three stone pillars. As I said, the whole area of the Temple Mount was named so for no reason other than it is where the Jewish Temple that they faced was.

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Does this sound like people following the same Qibla?


Following the "qiblat" of the Temple Mount is EXACTLY the same falsehood that Talmudic Jews follow.

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Isn?t this what this whole back and forth discussion has been about?

Salat and Qibla are connected from the usage of 10:87.


The "qibla" is not just about "salat". 10:87 doesn't say anything about "qibla" being followed exclusively at the time of "salat". 2:149-150 make it clear that even while on the move, one should face "al-masjid al-haram". There is no exception to not facing it.

So this leads to THREE physical impossibilities:

1. One cannot EVERYWHERE face the Temple Mount.
2. One cannot on the move face the Temple Mount, unless he sees it and is heading there (This is a big problem for your understanding because we know that "salat" can be done on the move).
3. Once the Temple Mount is under the horizon, it is impossible to be facing it.

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I think you are getting stuck in the details and missing the overall picture:

?And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable. ? (2:142)


Since 2:115 mentions the direction/"wagh" as related to the physical directions of east and west, then it is indeed talking about a physical direction. What The God is telling us is that physically, His direction is everywhere. On the other hand, 2:144 tells us that there is ONLY ONE direction to the TRUTH (in the same way that there is only one path that is straight). The same thing can be deduced from 2:177.

I hope that my comments have been helpful and even though I may sound harsh sometimes, please do not take them negatively. Try to think back to the time when you first heard about Hadiths being falsehood.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

Layth

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« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2004, 05:29:04 AM »
Peace Wakas,

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Before I comment on that, I want to get the most accurate trans. of 38:31-33.

Ith (when) AAurida (they were shown/displayed) AAalayhi (to him) bi (in) al (the) AAashiyyi (evening/dusk) al (the) ssaffinatu (still-standing horses) al (the) jiyadu (long-necked and beautiful).

I have seen significantly different translations of 38:32. Some say he didn't neglect his remembrance/mentioning (see M. Asad for example) and some say it was the horses who became hidden or disappeared. 38:33 states "bring/return them back" thus implying it was the horses that disappeared or became hidden in the barrier/veil (of night). This makes sense also but alas, I cannot scrutinise this verse in the detail I would like because of my lack of grammatical knowledge. This is what I have so far:

hatta (till) tawarat* (concealed/hidden) bi (in) al (the) hijabi (veil/barrier)

*it (the sun or materialism) or they (horses)? Different translators interpret it differently.


I re-read several times and discussed it...It appears to my understanding to be the sun (and not horses) that has gone way past the horizon.

I am re-examining the timing of "wusta" and "isha". I agree with your comments that there appears to be a cross over no matter which meanings are looked at between 17:78 and 11:114 and 24:58.

If so, that would make sunset-dark to be the "isha" period only.

I am currently looking at wusta being the "middle" (literally and physically) from examining 24:58 and 2:328.

Will try to post my views tommorow if possible.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

yfn123

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« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2004, 07:01:19 AM »
Peace,

Let's take a certain day of a certain person and see where he had been that day.

Woke up and ate breakfast at home at P1.
Walked to school at P2 (different from P1).
Went to the post office at P3 after class (different from P2, and P1).
Then went to the grocer shop at P4 (different from P1, P2, and P3).
Finally, returned home at P1.

Now according to the commandment, the person should have faced the so-called Qibla at P1, P2, P3, P4 and P1. Right?

Is this a correct understanding? If not, then why? Any comments?
Anwar Azim

Wakas

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« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2004, 07:11:51 AM »
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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