Author Topic: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer  (Read 39982 times)

progressive1993

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2009, 10:17:17 AM »
Peace Progressive 1993 

So the same word can mean different things in different verses? Do you have an example please, so I can try to get my head round this?

I was under the impression that it was some kind of method, using the Qur'an to explain the Qur'an, by finding the same word in other verses and comparing them to find a common meaning. Like the (beat/strike) example for beating wives as a last resort when the woman is suspected of (rebelling or being unfaithful?). It is usually always mistranslated and then people think it's ok to beat their wives...

Using the methodology of using the word "daraba" and finding out what other possible meanings it has elsewhere in the Qur'an you end up finding out the "daraba"ing the wives is more like kicking them out of the house rather than beating them up...

That's what I had understood anyway...

If the word indeed does not always have to mean the same thing, as you suggest, how can we check and make sure we are not just guessing what the word means?

Looking forward to hearing back from you, inshallah, and thanks

Peace




17:78 You shall hold the contact prayer/bond (salat)
 at the setting of the sun, until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.

2:157 To these will be bonding/bonds (salawat) from their Lord and mercy; they are the guided ones.

Do you not see a difference here? In the first verse, we are to do it, in the second verse, God is doing it to us. Furthermore, in the first verse, it is singular, and in the second verse it is in the plural form. Also, it could mean the same thing (bond/bonding/bonds).
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

UmAlawi

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2009, 10:40:13 AM »
Peace, people!

In 30:17 and 30:18

30:17 (Asad) EXTOL, then, God?s limitless glory when you enter upon the evening hours, and when you rise at morn;
30:18 (Asad) and [seeing that] unto Him is due all praise in the heavens and on earth, [glorify Him] in the afternoon as well, and when you enter upon the hour of noon.

that's 4 times, right?

Peace

progressive1993

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2009, 10:49:34 AM »
Peace, people!

In 30:17 and 30:18

30:17 (Asad) EXTOL, then, God’s limitless glory when you enter upon the evening hours, and when you rise at morn;
30:18 (Asad) and [seeing that] unto Him is due all praise in the heavens and on earth, [glorify Him] in the afternoon as well, and when you enter upon the hour of noon.

that's 4 times, right?

Peace

Do you mean salat? If so, where do you see that word in the above verse?
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

UmAlawi

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2009, 10:53:45 AM »
Do you mean salat? If so, where do you see that word in the above verse?

good point!
So at the other times, you just say it in your head or out loud?

progressive1993

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2009, 11:05:54 AM »
good point!
So at the other times, you just say it in your head or out loud?

You've got it. Just do what the Quran says. If it says praise God at a certain time, praise Him. If it says establish salat at a certain time, establish salat. However, I want to add that you can praise God, pray to Him, etc. whenever you want, needless to say.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

abdu

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2009, 01:53:40 PM »
Peace to all

Thank u Wakas for opening this topic,

When I started reading  Quran with free-minds translation I never felt the meaning of the 2:238 verse has got any thing to do with routine or obligatory salat which one should perform after having ablution at prescribed times. In an earlier discussion one year ago a brother who started reading Quran for the first time brought up the following meaning of those disputed verse. Perhaps he was not yet moulded with the pre-assumptions to match the meanings of the verses with those similar to the traditional beliefs.

Later I used to follow that method of deriving the meaning of Quran without any pre-assumptions even though it was difficult for me to come out of the mould created by the sediments of  traditions practised for almost 30 years.

If you examine these verses from 2:221 to 240 all the verses are about marriage, relation ships in the marriage and then divorce/death and again remarriage outlined in a particular sequence.

In 2:221 we get an idea about whom we generally should marry then goes to the subject of sexual relation ship ie sexual relationship to be avoided during menstruation 2:222and says we can approach them once they are clean as how God taught us. The approach or relation ship towards the woman is given by an example 2:223? as an approach similar to a cultivation and towards goodness. Then slowly go to the topic of disputes in the relation ship- 2:224/225 says not to be strict on casual oaths in which couple often interchange words. Then comes to the point of serious oaths of divorce 2:226. bythe following verse Allah gives the guide line for ending the relation ships in different circumstances , First divorce which u can remarry and the duration abstaining  from them and then second divorce again in which  you can remarry- gives guidelines to settle the dowry. Then gives the laws of  third divorce- at this point one can remarry only after she is married to a  third party and after getting divorced. Next verse gives the guideline how to treat them after the divorce that they should not be prevented from remarrying. Then goes to the topic of the children they give birth in terms of suckling and the responsibilities of husband and wife.
Then it deals with the topic of women in  2:234 where they loose their husband by death and in 2:235 it teaches how to propose to those widows  and  getting married to them.

Then again comes to the topic of special divorce where women get divorced before the sexual relation ship. 2:236-237

This is a very special circumstance where a woman get married and getting divorced before/after fixing the dowry but before any sexual contacts. This is not a normal thing to happen but again Quran is fully detailed and nothing is missed out.

Let us try to examine the next verses.

2:238 Maintain the bonds; and a balanced bond; and stand for God dutifully
2:239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
And then next verse 2:240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.

If the sequence of narration is about marriage, relation ship, divorce ,death and then special divorce then 2:238 and 239 also should talk about the same subject and not about daily  routine or obligatory salat which one should perform after having ablution at prescribed times, since 2:240 is again dealing with topic of the woman whose husband lives are terminated.

Now when we look at this peculiar situation of some body getting married as in verse 2:236-237 and he gets a call for war. There is no guarantee he will comeback alive. So whoever in the situation of fear of death or war can divorce their women if he has not entered into a sexual relation ship with his wife and there is no sin on him.
 
On this context if we read the verse 2:238 Maintain the bonds; and a balanced bond; and stand for God dutifully (? do not use the meaning? prayer? or ?blessings ? for salat) . This bond is talking about the bond between the woman who got divorced and her husband who divorced her beacuse of his life is in fear . This bond should be a moderate/balanced (al wusta) one and be dutiful to God ( ie fear God) that means not to exceed the limits or boundaries - do not get into deep relationship or not to hurt them by taking back all the dowries.
 
Once the fear is over
   2:239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding.(they can do the bonding) If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

That means once fear of death is over he can always comeback to her as how God has taught us in the previous verse, ie the remarriage. If he dies woman is allowed to remarry without the prescribed period of 4 months and 10 days.

Next verse 2:240 further details about a woman who did not get divorced and looses her husband while in fear.
2:241 says about how to treat a divorced woman.

So think about the circumstance somebody gets married and before having a sexual relationship he has to go for a war and he dies. What happens to the woman if she was not divorced before the war she has to wait for 4 months and 10 days before she can remarry.
This is a very important topic where Allah has set out the guide lines so that these women do not suffer. These circumstances might have been common in those times when they had frequent wars.

I don?t think Almighty suddenly brought the subject of routine salat  in between the subject  of marriage, relation ship , divorce/ death and remarriage. Here when we use  word ?bonding? instead of ?prayers? or ?blessing? for salat ( which also suits in other contexts where it is used in Quran) the verse talks about the  bonding between a couple who gets divorced before having a sexual relationship.

So the question of third timing of routine salat does not exist.


abdu

Ahmad Bilal

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2009, 06:33:15 PM »
Peace,

After looking thoroughly into the conditions of "al salaatu al wustaa", I see how this can be translated as "middle prayer" and "best/most excellent prayer". Since the word "wustaa" is used in a comparitive form, it makes sense for this to mean "the most excellent communion". However, in light of the mainstream idea that "salaat" is ritual prayer, and ALL of them are obligatory, being 2, 3, or 5, which one is the best one? Does it make sense for us to regard one salaat observance as "better" than another?

The only thing I've seen that supports this idea is the hadiyth concerning daily salaat:

It was narrated that Ibn ?Umar said: The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ?The best prayer before Allah is Fajr prayer on Friday in congregation.? (Narrated by al-Bayhaqi in Shu?ab al-Eemaan; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami?, 1119)

I don't completely agree with this idea, at least not regarding to it occurring specifically on Fridays, especially not based on the idea that Adam was created on Friday, expelled from the garden on Friday, he died on Friday, and the day of Judgement will occur on Friday... So, what is the "best" salaat, and how is it viewed in relation to the "salawaat" mentioned previously in the same passage?

Peace,

Ahmad
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Wakas

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2009, 12:47:24 AM »
peace AB,

Quote
So, what is the "best" salaat, and how is it viewed in relation to the "salawaat" mentioned previously in the same passage?


I recommend re-reading the thread, e.g. reply 17.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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herbman

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2009, 01:44:45 AM »
Peace to all

Thank u Wakas for opening this topic,

When I started reading  Quran with free-minds translation I never felt the meaning of the 2:238 verse has got any thing to do with routine or obligatory salat which one should perform after having ablution at prescribed times. In an earlier discussion one year ago a brother who started reading Quran for the first time brought up the following meaning of those disputed verse. Perhaps he was not yet moulded with the pre-assumptions to match the meanings of the verses with those similar to the traditional beliefs.

Later I used to follow that method of deriving the meaning of Quran without any pre-assumptions even though it was difficult for me to come out of the mould created by the sediments of  traditions practised for almost 30 years.

If you examine these verses from 2:221 to 240 all the verses are about marriage, relation ships in the marriage and then divorce/death and again remarriage outlined in a particular sequence.

In 2:221 we get an idea about whom we generally should marry then goes to the subject of sexual relation ship ie sexual relationship to be avoided during menstruation 2:222and says we can approach them once they are clean as how God taught us. The approach or relation ship towards the woman is given by an example 2:223? as an approach similar to a cultivation and towards goodness. Then slowly go to the topic of disputes in the relation ship- 2:224/225 says not to be strict on casual oaths in which couple often interchange words. Then comes to the point of serious oaths of divorce 2:226. bythe following verse Allah gives the guide line for ending the relation ships in different circumstances , First divorce which u can remarry and the duration abstaining  from them and then second divorce again in which  you can remarry- gives guidelines to settle the dowry. Then gives the laws of  third divorce- at this point one can remarry only after she is married to a  third party and after getting divorced. Next verse gives the guideline how to treat them after the divorce that they should not be prevented from remarrying. Then goes to the topic of the children they give birth in terms of suckling and the responsibilities of husband and wife.
Then it deals with the topic of women in  2:234 where they loose their husband by death and in 2:235 it teaches how to propose to those widows  and  getting married to them.

Then again comes to the topic of special divorce where women get divorced before the sexual relation ship. 2:236-237

This is a very special circumstance where a woman get married and getting divorced before/after fixing the dowry but before any sexual contacts. This is not a normal thing to happen but again Quran is fully detailed and nothing is missed out.

Let us try to examine the next verses.

2:238 Maintain the bonds; and a balanced bond; and stand for God dutifully
2:239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
And then next verse 2:240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.

If the sequence of narration is about marriage, relation ship, divorce ,death and then special divorce then 2:238 and 239 also should talk about the same subject and not about daily  routine or obligatory salat which one should perform after having ablution at prescribed times, since 2:240 is again dealing with topic of the woman whose husband lives are terminated.

Now when we look at this peculiar situation of some body getting married as in verse 2:236-237 and he gets a call for war. There is no guarantee he will comeback alive. So whoever in the situation of fear of death or war can divorce their women if he has not entered into a sexual relation ship with his wife and there is no sin on him.
 
On this context if we read the verse 2:238 Maintain the bonds; and a balanced bond; and stand for God dutifully (? do not use the meaning? prayer? or ?blessings ? for salat) . This bond is talking about the bond between the woman who got divorced and her husband who divorced her beacuse of his life is in fear . This bond should be a moderate/balanced (al wusta) one and be dutiful to God ( ie fear God) that means not to exceed the limits or boundaries - do not get into deep relationship or not to hurt them by taking back all the dowries.
 
Once the fear is over
   2:239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding.(they can do the bonding) If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.

That means once fear of death is over he can always comeback to her as how God has taught us in the previous verse, ie the remarriage. If he dies woman is allowed to remarry without the prescribed period of 4 months and 10 days.

Next verse 2:240 further details about a woman who did not get divorced and looses her husband while in fear.
2:241 says about how to treat a divorced woman.

So think about the circumstance somebody gets married and before having a sexual relationship he has to go for a war and he dies. What happens to the woman if she was not divorced before the war she has to wait for 4 months and 10 days before she can remarry.
This is a very important topic where Allah has set out the guide lines so that these women do not suffer. These circumstances might have been common in those times when they had frequent wars.

I don?t think Almighty suddenly brought the subject of routine salat  in between the subject  of marriage, relation ship , divorce/ death and remarriage. Here when we use  word ?bonding? instead of ?prayers? or ?blessing? for salat ( which also suits in other contexts where it is used in Quran) the verse talks about the  bonding between a couple who gets divorced before having a sexual relationship.

So the question of third timing of routine salat does not exist.


abdu


Thanks for this intelligent analysis,  this makes thinks much clearer and keeping things in context is definitly the best approach.

regards

Wakas

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2009, 06:48:29 AM »
peace abdu,

Thanks for your analysis, however it has its problems, two points:

You bring up the man being in fear issue and apply it to 2:238 before it is mentioned in 2:239. Note the conjunctive "fa" (so/then).
Your explanation of 2:239 does not fit as it is about remembering God, not a past wife etc, making it an insertion/extrapolation.


In my view, in addition to what I have already said, it simply means whilst one is guarding/preserving bonds (in life there are many), remember to guard/preserve the most balanced bond, and that is to God and His system etc. If this is done, then all other bonds will inevitably be straightened and preserved etc, and even when in fear, then it goes onto discuss death of spouse etc.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org