Author Topic: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer  (Read 27568 times)

Wakas

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #100 on: August 12, 2011, 12:23:08 PM »
No response thus far from member Joe Betik to any of my points.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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progressive1993

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #101 on: October 03, 2017, 09:34:39 PM »
Going to revive this thread. Here is my current understanding:

2:238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.

2:239 If you are in a state of worry/fear, then take a walk or a ride. Then when/Once you become relaxed/at ease, remember/then remember God because he has taught you what you did not know.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

HP_TECH

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #102 on: October 03, 2017, 11:39:25 PM »
Going to revive this thread. Here is my current understanding:

2:238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.

2:239 If you are in a state of worry/fear, then take a walk or a ride. Then when/Once you become relaxed/at ease, remember/then remember God because he has taught you what you did not know.

And what would that be? What would distinguish such duty/bond/commitment/relationship as being central?
There is a distinction in the ayaat which is made by the use of the Arabic term al-wusta. You have interpreted it as central, which is fine, but explain what you interpret as a central duty/bond/commitment/relationship.
إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

progressive1993

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #103 on: October 04, 2017, 11:48:55 AM »
We can see that "middle prayer" or any similar translation doesn't make sense. I will use Rashad Khalifa's translation as an example to illustrate this since he has misinterpreted and inserted words that aren't in 2:239. This verse will show that "middle prayer" does not make sense.

The first thing to bear in mind is the context of the verses surounding 2:238-239, which is marriage, contracts, divorce, God's comandments in regard to marriage and divorce, etc.

Now let us look at Rashad Khalifa's translation:

2:238 You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

2:239 Under unusual circumstances, you may pray while walking or riding. Once you are safe, you shall commemorate GOD as He taught you what you never knew.

The key misinterpretations are present in 2:239.

1. "Fa khiftum" is not "under unusual circumstances." It means "If you fear" or "if you are in a state of fear" and similar expressions.

2. The is no derivative of the root "SLW" in the verse

3. According to this translation, tradiational prayer is supposed to be done on foot or riding. How are we to bow and prostrate according to the understanding? Where is an exemption listed for this if that is not the case? It is not clear and not a viable interpretation.

4. Another key objection I have is: How can we totally commemorate God and focus on our salat or "prayer" if we are worrying about something else? We need to understand what we are saying and be able to focus.

5. The thing that stands out like a sore thumb is the following: Rashad Khalifa and most other translators claim that these verses refer to prayer, and that prayer is to be done for the remembrance/commemoration of God. Why would it say "once/if you are secure/in a state of ease/relaxed, you shall remember God?" This implies that we aren't remembering/commemorating God during our time of fear/worry.

Thus, it makes sense to me that we are to go for a walk/ride to channel away or digest the stress/worry/fear so that we can again focus on remembering God.

Now, what is "al salat al wusta?" Well, for believers it should be their commitment/bond/relationship/duty with/to God. I see the phrase "wa qoomoo li llahi qaniteena" in two different ways, as shown in my translation. It can be understood as something seperate but related to "al salat al wusta," or it can be seen literally as "al salat al wusta."

Thus, my previous translation uses:

2:238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.

"Wa" does not have to denote anything separate. In fact, the first "wa" has to be inclusive since we are told to "guard over/maintain all the salawat" - "al salat al wusta" however is emphasized. All of this makes sense when we look at the context. We are to maintain and carefully observe all our "salawat" and always remember what our "central" or "most important" or "most balancing" "salawat" is - it is the one we have with God and/or it is persisting/standing to/for God dutifully/devoutly.

I think the "al wusta" portion can be translated as "central," "most important," "balancing," "most balanced," "most right-minded," etc. I checked all the occurences of "WST" in The Reading and the meanings are as follows in the different verses:

100:5 "storming/penetrating into the midst/center"

5:89 "average" or "standard" or "most common"

68:28 "Most balanced" or "most equitable" or "most right-minded"

2:143 "Impartial" or "balanced" or "middle" or "central" - more likely "impartial/balanced"

Thus, I think "al salat al wusta" can refer to the "central" salat, which can be understood as the "most important" or "key" salat in our life. It could also be understood as the "most balancing" salat in our life. This could make sense in the context of divorce because you could have a partner that takes and takes without giving back, but God does not do that. Quite the contrary, what God gives us is everything and what we do for him is nothing or is almost 0.000000000... compared to what we do for him. Or, it can be seen as this relationship is the one that balances our life from all the bad things/worries that are going on. 2:239 becomes very relevant.

Either way, whether "central," "most important" or "key" salat, and whether "and," "and so" or "that is" - the message is clear.

If you ask someone who is following his career closely and committing totally to his career and doing everything their boss says, staying late, dealing with getting yelled at, yearning for a promotion and only focusing on their job/area of expertise: "what is your central/most important commitment?" They will name their career/job. Not so for those who trust in/acknoledge God. Similarly, if we understand it as "most balanced/balancing" commitment: With all that is going on in a believer's/acknowledger's life - he/she knows that he/she can rely on God and that persisting/standing for/to God helps them and is the most important thing to them. Similar arguments could be used if we substitute in "most right-minded" and similar expressions.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

The Sardar

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2018, 12:40:32 PM »
Salam/Peace, just posting this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5cbvQyHcUY

HP_TECH

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2018, 09:18:55 PM »
Salam/Peace, just posting this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5cbvQyHcUY

Salaam

Very interesting. Appreciate this Sardar

Haven't spoken to any of you in a while, hope all is well

إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِي

My Lord I repent to you for anything I uttered concerning You for which I have no knowledge of. Indeed You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

The Sardar

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2018, 02:14:03 AM »
Salaam

Very interesting. Appreciate this Sardar

Haven't spoken to any of you in a while, hope all is well
Thank you dear brother. I am well. In fact it's my birthday :)

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2018, 10:11:22 AM »
Salam and Happy Birthday brother Sardar! :) :sun:

The Sardar

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Re: 2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2018, 10:30:14 AM »
Salam and Happy Birthday brother Sardar! :) :sun:
:D