Author Topic: Almost a 'Quran Aloner' but just one question left!  (Read 10206 times)

TAJMAHA

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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2003, 06:20:40 AM »
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سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ
Salaamunn 3alaykumm,



Peace to you Mazher,

#1

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Mazher Khan (Delusions) wrote:

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esimsek100 wrote:1. Only Allah is authorative of the Quran. No one knows its true meaning except Allah. So for anyone to say that they know better shows nothing but pride. Remember walk humbly through the earth. Fine we have our disagreements so it's best to say, "To you, your way, to me, mine"


Although Allah is the Creator and Knower of the worlds, to say that no one knows the true meaning of the Quran except Allah, is untrue. HE wouldn't be revealing HIS message to humans via revelations otherwise. What's the purpose of the Quran? It is not meant for fools or every Tom Dick & Harry to understand and thus the verse 2:269 besides others.

One thing I know for sure, is that the Quran is not clear as crystal, in so many places, even for those scholars who have spent all their lives studying the Quran and all the sciences and resources that are engaged with it. They would still be unable to decide what was the meaning supposed from this or that word and why. And they know more than anybody else how hard it is to decide, mainly because their decision will be very likely taken as Allah?s Final Word, when in reality it is just theirs! That is why you would see them repeating ?And Allah Knows best? or "On the responsibility of this person or that.." or  even "I don't know!" or "I am the ignorant..", etc. at the end of every study and explanation. I was so surprised to see that the books of Khumaini are full of self-belittling statements!

 The different yet valid understandings of the Quran explain why there are so many sects, schools, etc...who have rested their cases on valid proofs in language sciences books, etc..

 I think that what esimsek100 meant by his statement is that no one can decide with hundred % certainty that their views are the only correct ones. Or maybe what esimsek100 meant was that no one should have the right to decide that his understanding is the definite and final one, and then go further and make his decision as a rule that should be strictly followed by others, or else those who refuse to follow, will be subjecting themselves to endless attacks and isults, etc. the way the member dhulqarnain is doing.

Personally, I think that an individual can or should and usually would decide for him/herself at one point or another, but that should only be on one's own self and not be imposed on others, the way the Pharaoh, for example, did
on Suratu  Gkhafirr#40, the ending of Ayah #29


قَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ مَا أُرِيكُمْ إِلَّا مَا أَرَى وَمَا أَهْدِيكُمْ إِلَّا سَبِيلَ
 الرَّشَادِ



That is the way the Pharaoh was, and every other Tyrant.
Messengers and Prophets (PP&BBUT) were never Tyrants. They were just the opposite.






 سَلاَمٌ  هِيَ  
Salaamunn He-Ya
Peace It Is

TAJMAHA

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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2003, 09:56:52 AM »
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سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ
Salaamunn 3alaykumm,




Peace to you Kelly,

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you make me smile Tajmaha, everthing you said is correct.

God bless you, Kelly. You made me cry now!  :oops:              
Kindness, love and compassion radiate in such mysterious ways! * Hallelujah*
 

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you have such a clear understanding of what faith is.
I don't know what to say. Words are failing me. I only hope to reach that level one day.

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You are right, faith comes from deep within and its an inner knowing.

Do you not agree with me, Kelly, that the deeper the individual is inside his/her heart,
a. pondering and measuring one's own words and actions, and
b. how to be mindful in communicating them with others, and also
c. contemplating about both clear and hidden lessons that life teaches us everyday,
the lesser time or interest he or she would have in judging and critizing and bashing (the way the member dhulqarnain does) others?

 



 


 سَلاَمٌ  هِيَ  
Salaamunn He-Ya
Peace It Is

AaRoN

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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2003, 02:17:42 PM »
peace

--

yaa tajmaha

each time you mention dhulqarnain in your posts, you are inviting his replies.

this is occurring often enough that i am starting to view you less as a victim and as more of a willing participant.

khalas

--

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One thing I know for sure, is that the Quran is not clear as crystal, in so many places, even for those scholars who have spent all their lives studying the Quran and all the sciences and resources that are engaged with it. They would still be unable to decide what was the meaning supposed from this or that word and why. And they know more than anybody else how hard it is to decide, mainly because their decision will be very likely taken as Allah?s Final Word, when in reality it is just theirs! That is why you would see them repeating ?And Allah Knows best? or "On the responsibility of this person or that.." or even "I don't know!" or "I am the ignorant..", etc. at the end of every study and explanation. I was so surprised to see that the books of Khumaini are full of self-belittling statements!


perhaps they were trying to view this quran through the lens of their world instead of viewing their world through the lens of this quran.

i've seen plenty of "and Allah knows best" remarks at the end of the commentaries of scholars, and i have viewed this often as a trick of reverse psychology, ie to give the impression of piety and humility in order to dupe the audience into acceptance of the commentary.

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The different yet valid understandings of the Quran explain why there are so many sects, schools, etc...who have rested their cases on valid proofs in language sciences books, etc..


personally, i view 42:14 as a perfect explanation of the divisions.

:)
* the Divine suffices as observer - appreciation is the message of the Divine - and those who are with it are harsh on concealment and nurture between themselves *

esimsek100

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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2003, 05:22:58 PM »
Quote from: "Someone"
Salam,

DoctorNO have the choice to stay and learn, like all of us, and also to contribute with his knowledge and experience. Still, he decided to leave for now. I hope that he would change his mind, and wake up his human side.


Peace Someone,

I was just wondering if you directed the above at me.

If so, I would like to remind that we are ordered to stand up against oppression and persecution. DoctorNO's road will eventually lead to the persecution and oppression of muslims. And in a way he was already committing it.
A wise man changes his mind, a fool never does!

esimsek100

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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2003, 05:31:50 PM »
Quote from: "TAJMAHA"

I think that what esimsek100 meant by his statement is that no one can decide with hundred % certainty that their views are the only correct ones. Or maybe what esimsek100 meant was that no one should have the right to decide that his understanding is the definite and final one, and then go further and make his decision as a rule that should be strictly followed by others, or else those who refuse to follow, will be subjecting themselves to endless attacks and isults, etc. the way the member dhulqarnain is doing.



Peace,

I meant both. In fact I think there was a verse that mentioned that only Allah knows the true meaning of the Quran. And I whole heartedly believe that no-one will ever know the true meaning of the Quran, not even the prophets.

Because the whole idea behind submitting, behind a life test is to strive for that goal. Just as we are always trying to better ourselves, we are always learning.
A wise man changes his mind, a fool never does!

HR

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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2003, 10:13:34 PM »
Salams,

Thanks Layth... very well reasoned. One last thing: in this instance is the Quran, therefore, asking us to ask the Ahl al-Dhikr (ie. ahlul kitab) what they received?

Hani

kelly

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« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2003, 10:46:05 PM »
Quote from: "TAJMAHA"
Do you not agree with me, Kelly, that the deeper the individual is inside his/her heart,
a. pondering and measuring one's own words and actions, and
b. how to be mindful in communicating them with others, and also
c. contemplating about both clear and hidden lessons that life teaches us everyday,
the lesser time or interest he or she would have in judging and critizing and bashing


you said it better than I ever could Tajmaha

a few verses come to mind regarding people who are aggressive and the right to defend yourself in such cases

[42:39] When gross injustice befalls them, they stand up for their rights.
[42:40] Although the just requital for an injustice is an equivalent retribution, those who pardon and maintain righteousness are rewarded by GOD.
[42:41] Certainly, those who stand up for their rights, when injustice befalls them, are not committing any error.
[42:42] The wrong ones are those who treat the people unjustly, and resort to aggression without provocation.
[42:43] Resorting to patience and forgiveness reflects a true strength of character.

people who display aggression on a regular basis have no understanding of the meaning of those verses.

Layth

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« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2003, 07:13:22 AM »
Peace Hani,

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Thanks Layth... very well reasoned. One last thing: in this instance is the Quran, therefore, asking us to ask the Ahl al-Dhikr (ie. ahlul kitab) what they received?


No, it is telling us that if we are in doubt as to the authenticity of this new Scripture (the Quran), then we should ask the people who have received the message before us if they recognize what is in it as being genuine.

Here are some supporting verses which may be of help:

"And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say: ?Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.? (5:83)

"Say: ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?  And they say: ?Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.?  And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility. " (17:107-109)

"Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it as they know their children. Those who lost their souls, they do not believe.  (6:20)

Layth
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Someone

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« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2003, 09:56:02 AM »
Quote from: "esimsek100"


A wise man changes his mind, a fool never does!



Salam esimsek100,

I was simply expressing a thought, and citing doctorno was only to expose an example known to us.

It was a generalization, directed to all, myself included.

I can hardly judge anyone, it?s not so simple, since I find it difficult to even judge myself, and choose the ?right answer?.

For doctorno, I was not oppressed by him, nor anyone of my family. He was simply expressing his ideas and debating. Perhaps it was in the wrong direction, but no one knows if he would change his mind before his death, and submit to God. It?s up to him to choose, there?s always a room for redemption?

It's a matter of choice.

Dhulqarnain

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« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2003, 08:07:55 PM »
Salaamun Mazher

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***I personally and truely believe, that brother Dhulqarnain, although stern at times for obvious reasons, have always shown impressive understanding of the Quran ONLY, by cumulative and objective approach that are not only thought provoking and reflecting reality but also contain sincere warning and advice, that we all must pay special attention to and take heed. ***


Thank you for your kind words, Mazher.  Allah, has blessed me some "understandings", but one of His, among many blessings to me, has been my teachers Hamza and Nadia abdul Malik [as well as, Aidid Safar's article...The Arab Conspiracy].  Many things that I have come to understand, has been the result of my study with Hamza and Nadia.  You, Layth and Nabi have also been sources of real growth for me.  

Contrary to how I post at times, I don't like to hurt to anyone's feelings however, I can't lie either, I do despise mockers of our Din and I can treat them very contemptuously.  However, bottomline, I do need to restrain myself in this regard.

Once again, thank you for your outspoken support.