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8:41

Started by Wakas, November 30, 2003, 05:08:16 PM

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Wakas

peace all,

What do you all make of the following verse:

You should know that anything you gain, then one-fifth shall go to God and the messenger, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the poor, and the traveller. You will do this if you believe in God and in what We revealed to Our servant on the day of the Criterion, the day the two armies clashed. God is able to do all things. [8:41]

Is this only applicable in the spoils of war?
I personally haven't studied if specific values are given for charity in The Reading,  but this would seem to imply 20% for those who have faith/belief/trust.

Any comments?


Wakas
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

TheNabi

Peace Wakas

The verses proceeding and preceeding 8:41 seem to revolve around the issue of warfare in various aspects. So I believe it may be referring to the spoils of war.

And fight them all until there is no more oppression, and so that the entire system is God?s. But if they cease, then God is watcher over what they do. And if they turn away, then know that God is your Patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Victor. You should know: ?Of anything you gain, that one-fifth shall go to God and the messenger, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the poor, and the wayfarer.? You will do this if you believe in God and in what We revealed to Our servant on the day of the Criterion, the day the two armies clashed. God is able to do all things. When you were on the near side, and they were on the far side, then the supply line became directly beneath you. And had you planned for this meeting, you would have disagreed on its timing, but God was to enforce a command that was already done. So that He would destroy those to be destroyed with proof, and to let those who will live be alive with proof. God is Hearer, Knowledgeable. God shows them to you as being few in your dream, and had He shown them to be many, then you would have failed and you would have disputed in the matter; it was God who saved you. He is the Knower of what is inside the chests. And God showed them to you when you met as being few to your eyes, and He made you appear as being fewer to their eyes. That was so God?s decree would come to be; and to God all matters are returned. O you who believe, when you meet a force, stand firm and mention God excessively, that you may succeed. And obey God and His messenger, and do not dispute else you will fail and your momentum will depart, and be patient. God is with the patient ones. And do not be like those who came out from their homes to boast and to be seen by men, and they repel others away from the path of God. God is aware of what they do. And the devil adorned their work for them, and he said: ?None from mankind can defeat you today, and I am by your side.? But when the two forces came together, he turned on his heels to flee and he said: ?I am innocent from you! I see what you do not see. I fear God, and God is severe in punishment." (8:39-48 )

Take care.

Joe
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek for verification & knowledge. ~> [3/190-191; 17/

Danish

Peace Wakas and all,

Perhaps I am having a hard time understanding the interpretation, if correct. Please see in bold below:

You should know that anything you gain, then one-fifth shall go to God and the messenger, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the poor, and the traveller. You will do this if you believe in God and in what We revealed to Our servant on the day of the Criterion, the day the two armies clashed. God is able to do all things. [8:41]

As interpreted and being understood, how is it possible to give 1/5th of the portion of what is gained after a war to GOD and HIS messenger. Or is it in the name of GOD and HIS messenger? Which messenger are we suppose to give the 1/5th of spoils of war today, let alone to GOD?

Is the verse in question speaking of the past and/or entirely misunderstood? Also the verse starts with an "and" signifying continuation from previous verses, yes.

asdfjk

Quote from: "Delusions"Peace all,

how is it possible to give 1/5th of the portion of what is gained after a war to GOD and HIS messenger.

salaam alaykum

Well if we accpet that the messanger = the message then it seems to me that this is one of those instances in Qur'an where Allah gives us some detail on what he means us to do with our God given wealth.  Namely that we give a share of our money to

"the relatives, and the orphans, and the poor, and the traveller"

For me it compares to 2:245 where Allah asks

"Who will lend God a loan of goodness  that He may multiply it for him many times over?  God collect and He distributes, and to Him you will return."

Just as in 8:41 God does not actually need us to lend him money.  But figuratively speaking in spending our wealth according to his guidance that is what we are doing.

Just to say tho - I do find the relatives reference confusing... In my Yusuf Ali trans it refers to family members of Mohammed  recieving money from war booty but that doesnt make much contemporary sense....

peace all

asdfjk

Danish

Salaamun asdfjk,

Thanks for your reply. Although I do understand your thoughtful response, somehow there’s still something ‘missing in action’.

When we read what is quoted above by Joe, most of what the story seems to be telling is of past tense, no? Something that happened at a time of war and a lesson for us to learn. In a real war today, how would one contemplate the 1/5th war booty scenario without a messenger/message and go about distribution as ordained. As a matter of fact, no such scenarios has ever been witnessed or even heard of in real life war, as far as I know, specially with a tag of 20% off.

Besides, what is meant by war booty here? Certainly not the distribution of nuclear and chemical warheads, arms and ammunitions, POW’s as slaves, lands, etc. included as well, or is it? Would you call that ‘wealth’ besides money, clothes, food, etc. Perhaps you or someone can shed some further light on this or maybe the interpretation needs to be re-assessed. Also, could the ‘messenger’ in this case be the commander-in-chief? Just a thought relevant to the collection and distribution of booty.

Wakas

peace all,

I think the messenger is being used as the commander-in-chief here. And it seems its only applicable under warfare. Perhaps stripping them of their weapons and related machinery etc could constitute as booty. 20% of this value redistributed to the needy/poor etc.


Wakas
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

asdfjk

Quote from: "Wakas"peace all,

I think the messenger is being used as the commander-in-chief here. And it seems its only applicable under warfare. Perhaps stripping them of their weapons and related machinery etc could constitute as booty. 20% of this value redistributed to the needy/poor etc.


Wakas

Peace all

hmm - "commander-in-chief" - I don't know.  I know it makes a kind of historical sense to ascribe Muhammad's military role to a contemporary commander-in-chief...but its not what it says in the book.  It feels like a big itjihad to get from Messanger to Military commander.  

Would we consider George Bush to be behaving islamically if he took control of 20% of the value of Iraq and started distributing it to the poor.....I know we wouldn't cos he's not a Muslim in the first place....but do you see my point?

All this also raise three further questions for me.  

i) are these instructions directed only at the society in general (this meaning would be needed to make sense of the commander in cheif being responsible for the distribution) or are they also directed at the individual soldier?

ii) also the people most poor and needy after a contemporary military confict are those civilians living at the site of the conflict.  Is the instruction then to give a part (1/5th) of "anything you gain" immediately back to the civilians whose lives have been affected by the very conflict that led to the gains??

iii) With regard to "the relatives" could this refer to the relatives of deceased soldiery?  My arabic is way too weak to be able to understand if 'relatives' means the messangers relatives or just anybody's relatives.

Since the wars that are fought these days tend to be political rather than territorial (israel/palestine a notable exception) and result in the defeat of governments rather than the aquisition of material wealth in the classic sense of "booty" I was initially tending to agree with Mazher that these are historical ayats.  Then I started to examine the phrase "Of anything you gain" and thought it must include land and material wealth as well as any military equipment gained.

BUT  if we look to  8:69 we find the follwing instuctions with regard to war gains

8:69.????????? So consume what you have gained, lawful and good, and be aware of God. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

which seems to imply that the "anything you gain" of 8:41  is refering to food stuff.  Yusuf Ali uses the term "enjoy" rather than "consume" but claims it literally means "eat" - which Shakir uses directly

thus - for 8:69

YUSUFALI: But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Now enjoy what ye have won, as lawful and good, and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

If 8:41 can be understood as refering to foodstuff exclusively this all starts to make more sense as a contemporary as well as historical injunction.  Since Muslims are not supposed to be fight wars for purposes of plunder (8:67) this more limited meaning of "gains" might be a better understanding.  It makes much more sense to give food to the needy than a nuclear warhead! :lol:

salaam

asdfjk

ps - reading some more this evening - I note the tranliterations on 8.41  and 8.69 run as

8:41 WaiAAlamoo annama ghanimtum min shay-in faanna

8:69 Fakuloo mimma ghanimtum halalan tayyiban

with ghanimtum occuring in both places as -  'you gain'.

Fakuloo (eat) also occurs in 16:114 ("so eat from what God has provided for you....) and 2:58 ("And we said: "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish..") and a few other verses too.  

*   An-Nisa (The Women)> [4:4]
*   Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) > [5:4]
*   Al-An'am (The Cattle) > [6:118]
*   Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)> [8:69]
*   An-Nahl (The Bee)> [16:114]
*   Al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage)> [22:28][22:36]

In all those cases its refering to eating food, except for 4.4 where it refers to a dower..  But only in 8.61 does it suddenly start to mean "enjoy your war booty..." etc...

I'm beginning to wonder if there is any quranic support for the notion of "war booty" beyond food taken during military campaigns.. :roll:

salaam, asdfjk

Damon

Peace y'all,

I like asdfjk's explanation concerning the 20% which goes to GOD and his Messenger. I believe it was explained very well where GOD is concerned, but I'm still stumped about the "Messenger".

Could the "Messenger" possibly be the GOD Alone movement itself? For example, you have two armies opposing each other. One army is considered the aggressor due to infringement of the other armies rights. This other army is fighting out of self-defense of their rights for dignity, peace, ruling of their own land as well as Freedom of Spiritual belief.

To make my point even more comprehensable, let's say this defending army is made up of people who are strict "Monotheists". If the majority of these people are part of and support Progressive Muslims, then possibly the "Messenger" in this case could be The Progressive Muslims Organization and their Message of GOD Alone/Quran Alone?

So that  may mean that 1/5 is not neccessarily given to one person, but given to the organization itself to help in the continuation of the GOD Alone movement which happens to be the "Message" that is being promoted.

Just a small theory. What do guys think?

Salaam,
Damon.

asdfjk

Quote from: "Damon"
So that  may mean that 1/5 is not neccessarily given to one person, but given to the organization itself to help in the continuation of the GOD Alone movement which happens to be the "Message" that is being promoted.
.

salaam bro

I think that makes sense if you understand the gains mentioned in 8.41 to be material wealth.  

As far as I can see the other place where "war booty" or "spoils" is discussed is in sura 48 where the terms "maghanima" is used.  I'm assuming this is the same root as "ghanimtum"  in 8:41 and 8:69 but burhan is down at the mo so can't check the roots out.

The relevant ayat are 48:15,  48:19, 48:20

Yusuf Ali et al are sure this is war booty and progressive muslims also terms it as 'spoils' But since the desert arabs are criticised in this sura for seeking the spoils of war I'm having trouble understanding these ayats.   Since the sura deals with gaining access to the restricted Temple could these 'gains' be understood as spirtual or pragmatic gains for the early muslims.  Or are we to understand them as flocks of sheep, roles of cloth, scud missiles....!

hm
salaam
asdfjk

Can anybody help on this one??

FearfulOfAllah

Salam,

My opinion is that when God and the messenger is mentioned, it means spending in the way of God, which can be a wide range of things, some the examples being the relatives, the orphans, the poor and the traveller.

As to what it is that has to be spent in the way of God, I think it is 20% of the extra income that resulted from participating in the war.  For example, if a soldier makes $200 extra as war alowance (not including his normal base pay that he/she already pays Zakat from), then 20% of that $200 would be $40.  The soldier has to then spend $40 in the way of God.

Similarly, if the government gets any income/profit from the war, then 20% of it has to be spent on charitable causes.
---------------
I love Allah!

[The contents of this message are correct only to the best of my knowledge and represent my views only.  Please verify all information before accepting it as the truth and correct me if you see any mistakes.]

idolfree1

Peace be upon you,

Excellent dialouge going on here.

My understanding is as follows. First, we must understand that the word "rasool" means BOTH Messenger AND Message. So when we read "The God and His messenger", we should understand it as "The God and His MESSAGE". Remember, the messengers are only that when they proclaim the MESSAGE itself.

With that said, during war, people are taken to the animalistic level, so a reminder will be needed for them when it is all over that we must SHARE the  resources of this earth. We give 1/5th to righteousness, which would be the poor, etc. Those who could not afford to come to the battle, were sick, etc.

Aladin Azra

I think that all should be split in fifths: one fifth for Allah and His resool, one for the nearest, one for the orphans, one for the disabled ones, and one for the homeless (not "travellers"). For Allah and His resool is for spreading His message and messenger should take care of that.
Ordo ab LICENTIA.